Growing Internal Frustration Taking Blackhawks To Breaking Point?

There has been a lot of talk about the direction of the Blackhawks in the wake of Chicago’s divorce with Corey Crawford and subsequent trade of Brandon Saad.

On Sunday, Mark Lazerus at The Athletic published an exclusive interview with Jonathan Toews. The captain’s comments were pointed. From that article:

“Bottom line is, I want to win,” Toews told The Athletic on Saturday night. “The expectation for the other leaders on this team and myself is to come ready to training camp every year to be a playoff team. We prepare ourselves to win a Cup for our fans. I’ve never been told that we were going through a rebuild. That has never been communicated to me, for that matter. A lot of this comes as a shock because it’s a completely different direction than we expected.”

Toews has rarely gone public with any comments, especially calling into question the moves made by the organization. The last time he appeared to be moved by a move by the front office was when the Hawks fired coach Joel Quenneville.

“There’s some guys you think you’re going to be surrounded by forever,” Toews told the media in January. “And all of a sudden things change. It will definitely be weird to see him on the other bench because all those years playing for him, you just didn’t think things would ever change.

“Things were really great with him behind the bench. Had a great relationship that grew stronger and stronger as time went on when he was in Chicago. It’ll definitely be different seeing him on the other side.”

His interview with Lazerus was eye-opening even to some of the longest-tenured NHL insiders.

In his 34 Thoughts column on Wednesday, SportsNet’s Elliotte Friedman wrote the following:

“I’ve chased Jonathan Toews during the off-season. He prefers his privacy and declines interviews, which is totally understandable. I only bring it up because the fact he surfaced to give an interview to The Athletic’s Mark Lazerus about the Blackhawks’ direction is significant. Toews wanted to make a point. Chicago’s decision making says to me that Blackhawks ownership doesn’t feel the team can contend for a Stanley Cup, knows the economics are extremely challenging without fans and are punting on next season.”

Toews isn’t alone. Sources indicate the Blackhawks’ core of Toews, Patrick Kane, Duncan Keith and Brent Seabrook have been in frequent contact during this offseason of change, and the players have been vocal to each other and the organization – over Stan Bowman’s head – about their frustration with the lack of communication from the decision makers and the players who led the franchise to three championships.

Toews and Kane have three years remaining on their matching contracts that carry a $10.5M cap hit. Keith also has three years left on his deal with a $5,538,462 cap hit. Seabrook’s contract has been widely blamed by fans; he has four years left on his deal carrying a $6.875M AAV.

With the pandemic’s league-wide economic impact on the NHL, and the ages of the players, it’s understandable that the Blackhawks would be concerned about the dollars coming in.

But the growingly public appearance of a significant disconnect between the leadership on the ice and the front office makes for a uniquely awkward situation.

Amplifying those issues is the lack of internal options to support the veteran cast.

Scott Wheeler of The Athletic published his list of the top 50 under-23 prospects in the NHL on Wednesday, and the Blackhawks were one of six teams to not have a player on the list; the others were the Bruins, Lightning, Penguins, Blue Jackets and Islanders.

Development continues to be an issue. Rockford has not produced many NHL regulars over the past six years – at least in Chicago. And we’re not counting Jeremy Colliton as being developed with the IceHogs.

Since Kane won the Calder Trophy in 2008, Chicago has had only four players finish in the top three for the top rookie award: Kris Versteeg (2009), Saad (2013), Artemi Panarin (won the award in 2016) and Dominik Kubalik (2020).

Alex DeBrincat, Adam Boqvist and Kirby Dach jumped straight to the NHL (Boqvist appeared in 15 games with Rockford last year). Ian Mitchell spent three years at Denver but figures to be on the NHL roster in the coming season as well.

Phillip Danault spent two full seasons in Rockford but was traded to Montreal before he found his footing in the NHL. Similarly, Teuvo Teravainen spent half of one season in Rockford before he was recalled but didn’t establish himself as a top-six NHL player until after he was traded to Carolina.

The core four of the Blackhawks have been outspoken about wanting to make another run at a championship – together.

They aren’t getting much help from the front office, however.

And, now, it appears the disconnect that was once between Bowman and Quenneville had shifted to the team’s on-ice leadership and the front office.

202 thoughts on “Growing Internal Frustration Taking Blackhawks To Breaking Point?

  1. This is what happens when a team FINALLY acknowledges the need for a rebuild. Unfortunately, McDonough was given too much control by Rocky and that led to the Hawks misguided strategy of trying to “rebuild on the fly.” Which was a total failure and has led to the need for a rebuild. McDonough’s idiotic injection into the hockey side of the business will have only served to prolong the Hawks return to true playoff contention. Rocky screwed up mightily.

    Toews has earned the right to chirp. But to be clear, he no longer is an elite or even a star player in the NHL. Rather he’s a over-compensated middle of the pack type NHL Center at this stage. Yes, he’s going into the Hall of Fame someday, but his critique of the current strategy rings a bit hollow to me. Far more meaningful for me would be the opinions of Kane, who remains a star-level player and is, by far, the best talent the Hawks put on the ice each night. It is Kane who will be counted upon heavily to be the draw of this team in Chicago and beyond.

    What goes under-reported? Well, in my opinion Keith has little respect for Colliton or the coaching staff. I think Keith would fully acknowledge he is in the sunset stage of a brilliant career and can’t do some of the things he used to be able to do on the ice. Still, he is a deeply respected veteran across the NHL landscape and a shoo-in himself for the Hall of Fame. Last two seasons? I’ve seen a Keith on the ice who telegraphs a big fat “F-U” to his coach Colliton on the bench. To me, Colliton and his bizarre fascination with a soft international style of play is the biggest problem yet addressed by Rocky or Bowman. To me, Colliton needs to be shot into the sun and a new head coach put in place who can genuinely preside over a rebuilding on the ice while also earning the respect of the key vets.

  2. if the core wants to win so badly they can wave their nmcs and allow the hawks to explore trades to contending franchises. have they really not seen the writing on the wall the last couple of years? do 2, 7, & 19 look in the mirror and not be able to figure out they will never again lead any nhl team to a stanley cup championship? contributors perhaps, but never again leaders. they are losing their battles against father time as all athletes do.

    no sympathy. i loved these guys. they were great for chicago and the hawks, the hawks and chicago were great for them, and three stanley cup championships were realized. but all good things come to an end and being a professional sports player has a very short half life.

    stop the whining and wave the nmcs. the players will be better off as well as the prospects for the future for the hawks. unless, of course, bowman shits his pants in the transactions moving them.

  3. I know from the posts here, who have no stake in it, the frustration trying to figure out what the organization is up to. Just imagine why the frustration on the veteran core players part after all they been through and accomplished, and their livelihoid to boot. Also gotta wonder with these cost cutting measures happening now, if going from 6m a year hof coach to a what would amount to minimum wage coach in nhl terms is just a coincidence and why he seemingly has so much security.

  4. Big Barn – Your analysis is fn spot on. Toews has faded, Kane remains brilliant. Colliton is not qualified to lead. Move Toews if even possible and get a real coach who can motivate the players as they go through the rebuild.

  5. Big Barn I have to say your phrase of shooting Colliton into the sun really warms me on the inside. It’s a great image. And if they had a real coach, trying to rebuild with the vets here would be much more palatable to all concerned, us fans as well.

    Although I will say one things about Toews. He is still a world class competitor, and he kicked McDavid’s ass in the playoff play-in series. He was our best player. So it’s not like he can’t dial it up anymore and is only an average player, but yeah, not a superstar still like Kane certainly is.

    And the question isn’t should the Hawks rebuild. We have seen enough the past four years or so to know the are not Cup contenders at this point. The question we should be asking with every move, trade, and signing, is are they making the right decisions to get us where we need to be? And can Stan do that?

    I’d say so far the answer to that is a resounding no.

  6. McD wasn’t in charge of the scouting or evaluation of both drafted prospects and FAs. That’s 100% on Stan. So the notion that Stan can finally do his job now is bottomless. Further, Stan has no clue on how to manage down. He shows little care for the players who have proven themselves to be winners and who understand a team structure to get wins. Good GMs straddle the line, and manage up and down effectively. When Toews sees a dumpster fire on the horizon, shall he just accept it? Further, I don’t think his comments were salacious. Would you rather have Toews be apathetic? He could easily do so.

    Stan’s all about protecting himself. For years it was “re-load”, and “we’re committed to winning now”. Does he think his implied “rebuild” is something we as fans are to just going to accept? That we won’t question it? That’s not being a “hater”, that’s being objectively critical. There’s a difference. I’ll give him credit for some of his moves, but overall his management is subpar to say the least. I fear the Haws are in for a Detroit-like purgatory, with years of mediocre results.

    And I loved Saad’s quote in the Sun-times, talking about the Avs: “It’s one of those teams where they [might not have their best night], but they come through with talent, with scoring goals, playing well defensively, playing a good system,” he said. “They have a lot of depth as well. All those [things] lead into championship teams. Back when we were winning in Chicago, that was the formula.”

  7. If you’ll allow me to vent/rant, I have a few things to say:
    1. I know my bias, and I love these 4. I will forever. I have no problem admitting my bias when it comes to The Captain and Seabrook, especially.

    2. Big props to those of you that can say “forget them, they got their money”, they can pout about it”. I can’t. Because guess what: these 4 are bigger than just Chicago in the hockey world. *Players around the league* listen to them.If the 4 guys that were *the* backbone of your money making machine for 12+ years are getting treated like complete dogshit because of management’s decisions (including the contracts that they were given by said management): thats BAD NEWS for all of us. Its really bad for the franchise.

    Why? Because The Core 4 will tell *everyone they know* to steer clear of Chicago because management says one thing and does the opposite & will treat you like shit at the twilight of your career. That you can be sure of. And the UC will be the empty cavern it was before the Reinassance.

    3. The Core 4 deserve better than Stan and Jeremy, and so do we as consumers of the product on the ice.
    The Wirtz family has another choice to make: Stan/Jeremy or the players.

    …….Vent/Rant over……..

  8. I’ve lived through the Bob Pulford years as a Hawks fan and I have a hard time being sympathetic to the Core right now. Don’t get me wrong, I really wanted the Hawks to extend the Cup window further. I would have loved to been able to win or at least get close to winning another Cup with this core. But what do these guys have to complain about really? They played for an organization that won not one, but three Cups. Management actively pursued winning and excellence and went for it year after year after year. They rewarded these core players with generational wealth and NMC’s to give them financial and personal/family/home security so they could determine their own fate. That is NOT how the Hawks operated under the Old Man Wirtz.

    But honestly, I don’t get what these players have to complain about, perhaps Bowman could have done his job better since 2015, but so could Toews. He couldn’t crack 60 points in the three seasons after his contract kicked in. I don’t recall Bowman publicly lambasting him during that time do you? Same for Seabrook, as recent as last season, Bowman was defending his player in the media, suggesting that he (Bowman) did not do enough to bring players to the team that complimented Seabrook.

    My point isn’t to blame the players for the teams demise, but to point out that despite any missteps management may have taken since 2015, Bowman was actively trying to extend the Cup window after the core were more than amply rewarded for their contributions to bringing the Cup to Chicago three times. While the results may not have been great, the plan was to try and win. When individual players were perhaps not living up to the expectations of their large contracts, management did not publicly display any real or imagined displeasure. So what more are these players due? I get being upset, I get wanting your cake and eating it too, but this is where they are. These players are not without options, regardless if they don’t like what those options are.

  9. Toews is correct to say he comes to training camp prepared to win the Stanley Cup. All players are supposed to do that. The apparent disconnect is between him thinking the Hawks have a realistic chance to win the Cup and the reality they don’t.

    Toews and the other players jobs are to prepare themselves as best they can and inherent in that preparation is the belief they will succeed. That’s normal and necessary, but management has to have a different mindset. Their focus has to be more than being as good as can be for the next shift of a game in the current season, they need to have a longer term view and inherent in that is a realistic expectation of the teams capabilities. Management rightfully assessed the Hawks aren’t good enough to realistically challenge for the Cup as currently comprised so changes need to be made.

    Toews, as the consummate team leader, should be leading the other players into this new direction rather than whining about the new direction and that he wasn’t consulted.

  10. Last winter Bowman went to reporters to tell them he didn’t need to communicate with his star players on what ditection of team was. Kind of odd and a bit unprofessional to challrnge them in media like that, i thought. Kane responded he would talk to McDonough after season as he usually does and put the fire out. Have to think that may have been part of reason McDonough wad forced out the door before season ended and those convetsations could happen. What we are seeing now is just possibly a symptom of what started there.

  11. Stefanie – Seabrook can’t possibly complain about anything imo. I love him too. He’s a legend, but he’s so done in the NHL and shouldn’t have a say or a part in anything moving forward unless he becomes a broadcast commentator. Of the four he’s most definitely no longer, even remotely, part of the conversation.

  12. EB i thinl that is kinda of what Toews said, he is a leader but how can he when that leadership is in his opinion being underminded by front office. It is Bowmans job to communicate to the leaders what is going on, so they can go talk about it to the players. Unfortunately this teams is looking dysfunctional because of this.

  13. @Stephanie, I think I get what you are saying about the core bad mouthing the Hawks management, but the Hawks won three Cups with more or less the same management group. How ridiculous would it look to a player listening to Toews bitch about how the GM who made him the richest player in the NHL after winning their second cup, and then went out and fielded a team that won a third Cup is somehow not fulfilling his promise?

    Ask, Joe Thornton if he would trade places with Toews, or maybe Lundquist trade places with Corey…

    An argument can be made that Bowman isn’t as good a GM as he looked when winning three Cups, but not rewarding the core for their contributions to the recent success of the team is something that Bowman can’t be accused of.

    This isn’t bowman cutting cords after the 2016 playoff loss, this is Bowman who spent 11 million on goalies last year on a team that finished 12th looking at all the outside factors and making an unpopular call.

    Maybe the players feel they deserve to be communicated with better about the direction of the team. I can’t say one way or another if this the right thing to do, but I suspect that most franchises don’t operate that way.

  14. Toews has fallen to the level of a 3rd line Center for the last 4 years.The Hawks should be the ones complaining about him.Seabrook has been a trainwreck for over 4 years.Keith has been mediocre at best.Kane has the real beef here.Get him a couple of quality linemates.It was time for Crawford and Saad to go.They are upgrading their bottom 6 and D men because they don’t have the money for a #1 and #2 Center and a power forward or a goalie.Move Seabrook,Keith,and maybe Toews and we can finish a rebuild

  15. To Stefanie (and everyone else),

    As many have noticed, I am no fan of the GM.
    We can give him funny nicknames to vent our frustration with his abysmal performance since 2016, but the bottom line is the following:

    The guy was handed the keys to an elite machine.
    He maintained it well.

    But when that machine needed to he traded in, he had no clue how to buy a new one.
    (Jokiharu for Nylander. Daley for Scuderi. Etc, etc, ad nauseam.)

    Good GMs retool on the fly. (See Rutherford in Pittsburgh.)

    The bullet points of failures by this GM must number around 15-20 since 2016.

    Each one drove the team further South.

    His ultimate screw up will forever be the firing of Q and the hiring of Colliton.

    So we should not be surprised to hear proven leaders like Toews/Keith pipe up and basically say, ‘WTF Bowman?’

    Bowman never got crushed in the slot then went on to play a huge role in a Cup clinching game two nights later.

    Bowman never lost a slew of teeth in period 1, then returned to the ice in period 2 to help his team advance to their 1st SCF in 18 years.

    These players hung it all out on the ice to bring home Cups.

    Their opinion matters. A good GM, in ANY business, knows that.

    As a nurse during this pandemic, your opinion matters to your boss, correct?

    But Bowman is not a good GM.
    To not see that? It is to not want to see that.

  16. “Rebuild should have started after Nashville sweep”

    Spot on. As Captain Willard once said: “Absolutely goddam right.”

  17. I don’t get the idea that Bowman is throwing in the towel. The Saad trade to me is a win for Bowman. The other 2 signings are better than what is current on the bottom six. Sign Frome and the team is better than the one that beat the Oilers. Oh how did Saad play in that series. Invisible is the word I am looking for. Also 2 other new forwards coming, just play the game and collect your 10.5 million dollars Toews.

  18. I waited 49 years to see the Hawks win another SCup, and I got to see two more. Magnificent. And it wasn’t anything to do with our lousy GM, Stan Bowman. What I refuse to do is toss aside guys like Kane, Keith, Toews, and Seabrook and suggest they lay aside their Names. These are the guys that did it and I will forever be grateful and be a fan. If anyone has cost us further opportunity to compete, it’s Bowman. His moves every year since have been awful and plain stupid. Firing Q was terrible. Hiring Colliton added stink to the trash pile. Until this inept GM is gone, no “rebuild” of his making will save us.

  19. Yeah……sounds to me that Stan is purposely getting some or all of the Big 4 riled up hoping that they will waive their no trade clause and ask to be traded, therefore clearing up salary cap space for a rebuild. Once again it looks like Stan either miscalculated one of his actions ( trades , coaching change, draft picks,etc ) or he is just plain clueless. We need Edzo to make these decisions !!

  20. Full disclosure: I am just honestly sick of so many people blaming the shitstorm we are in now all on Seabrook. He’s my guy.

    Seabs signed that extention in 2015.

    Stan has had ample opportunity to fix the holes on this team with full knowledge of the monies that would come due.

    Just these last two weeks: signing players that don’t fit needs– adding MORE DEFENSEMEN when we’ve needed a solid 2/3 C since 2012– is Seabs’ fault??? OK got it.
    Also love how the core 4 can’t complain.
    Here’s the deal: if the 4 were told that they *would* be considered part of the process…
    and once Q left then management Stan/Jeremy/Danny/Rocky/MacIsaac WHOMEVER changed course & the door has been slammed in their face, then they have every right to complain, IMO.

    Stan nor Jeremy could come close to sniffing Brent, Duncan, Johnny & Patrick’s jocks as far as legacy is concerned. Yeah I went there.

    So, if it were me, I’d whine.
    But whatever.

  21. I believe that communication is a 2-way street, not just in concept but also in practice. At the highest level of sports, communication – in my opinion – should exist between players and management in an open way, a way already in place when players arrive and know they will be received respectfully.

    But there should be a pecking order – a protocol. Players talk to team leadership (the guys with letters on them), who then talk to coaches and then management above them in some laid-out fashion unique to that team. The only time that protocol should be broken is for personal situations or if you feel you aren’t getting a fair response from your last attempt. Sports – like the rest of the world – is a business. Similar protocols exist in most businesses of size.

    I can’t speak for what JT has done in following that protocol, or even if the Hawks have such a protocol. But clearly, communication has broken down, and I think it is incumbent on JT to go up the chain immediately – I would be shocked if he hasn’t already. All 4 of the core should do that, probably as a group. And yes, I can see no need to talk to the coach first. For every rule – there is an exception.

    I take exception with anyone claiming that JT doesn’t belong as the captain of the team any longer because he is no longer an elite player. To claim Kane should represent the players because he is a better player had me in stitches! Have you not followed the Hawks and his antics, on and off the ice? I understand his pull of fans may be greater, but that isn’t why a captain is named. How many times was Bobby Hull the main pull of the Hawks? And he was captain for how many years? Dirk Graham was the major pull for how many years and was captain for 7. Dennis Savard was captain once. I want my captain to be a leader, not a lazy guy who only yearns for spotlights. Savard being captain once speaks volumes to me, and might be indicative of his failure as a coach.

    Ultimately hockey is a business. Has anyone here had a bad experience in their workplace regarding communication? It happens all the time – right? Personally, I spent the first 13 years of my worklife in blue collar factory life. Then I went white collar professional for about the same amount of time. For the last 20 years I have been self-employed. Overall, I had no voice or recourse in blue collar life, little voice in white collar (but some), and complete voice the past 20. My reality is that it has been tougher while being self-employed. Why? Simple – you have nobody else to blame.

    If I were to change my work history, I would want to be self-employed the entire time.

  22. stefanie

    you have played the “my heart strings are broken by the blame seabrook game” to death. by your posts you appear to be an intelligent person and informed about the hawks and hockey. you know very well that no sane person blames seabrook for the current state of the hawks. his nightmare of a contract is certainly a major contributor to their current problems, but that is the fault of hawks management, not seabrook.

    steve larmer was my seabrook. there are legions of fans who have their guy who, for whatever reason, is their guy over and above anyone else. BUT……they all move on sooner or later. at least your guy wasn’t chased out of town by a penny pinching wirtz. take comfort in moving along and hating bowman and preparing to feel the same way about rocky if he allows this shit show to continue.

    the losers in this aren’t the remaining core players. the losers are the fans who will be watching mediocre hockey for the next several years because they are die hard hawks fans and management on every level has shit their pants.

  23. If this is truely a rebuild, alla Theo, you need move Kane and Towes. They are the only chips to bring in valuable picks for the future. Piss them off and get them to wave thier causes. Don’t worry about what they tell others, the next contender isn’t going to me made up of anyone in the league now that will be listening. By then, player that sign will be chasing the bright lights of a achivable trip to the Stanley Cup.

  24. Stephanie – To be clear, I don’t blame Seabs for the situation the team is in. I doubt most people do. He got paid and that’s fine. He’s simply no longer an NHL caliber player.

  25. My only surprise is that 2, 19 or 88 haven’t spoken up sooner. Stan is in over his head on a rebuild so the veterans need to decide whether they’ll die Hawks or approve a trade to a contender hoping for one last glory run. I believe all three will be gone by this time next year. You simply do not win the Cup three times and just quietly retire on active duty trying to survive a 5 year rebuild. These guys are loyal but even greats like Trottier and Roy were traded and won Cups elsewhere.

  26. A lot of very good posts on this thread. I don’t know how the recent activity has been characterized as a “rebuild.” A rebuild would be trading Kane and Toews for prospects and picks and starting from scratch. Trading a guy on the last year of his deal and not offering a 36 year old goalie with injury history a multi-year deal don’t feel like we are in “tearing it all down mode.” I feel like we keep trying to be competitive but between limited cap space, trades and signings that haven’t worked out, mediocre drafting and the unexpected early loss of Hossa, we are treading water. Newsflash, so are most other teams. As others have said if the core is not happy with the situation they can always ask for a trade although Kane is likely the only contract that could be traded without a sweetener. There will always be tension between the GM and players. Just in the last week Krug was pissed that the Bruins pulled their offer, Gallagher and Danault are unhappy in Montreal. The Blues sign Krug basically telling Pietrangelo he was done. I hear Stamkos is available, how’s that for breaking up the core? I feel that today’s media really blows this stuff up as a way to drive readers to their sites. There is much less reporting of the facts and much more “this is the worst trade ever!” I, like so many on this site, have been a Hawks fan since the 60’s and have remained a die-hard long after I left the Chicago area. After so many years of disappointment we have been blessed in a way that most sports fans will never know with 3 cups in 6 years. Maybe we get another shot soon, maybe not. I find it a waste of time to try and find the one person that can be blamed.

  27. The Hawks Finally Decide to stop dreaming after trying to win with The 4-5 best players from 10-13-15 ( S Cup ).Its time for a new beginning like in 09-10-11 . It will be a long process 3-5 years probably. I really want to get big reward for Toews when it’s time to move him To a cup contender in March-April .Maybe a top Prospect and a first round pick ?
    Seabrook would be a nice move also even if he come back strong it will be for 2-3 years max .
    Hope that Shaw retires soon and just enjoy life with is family.
    New Hawks Go

  28. Good points time to start over need new coach gm cat signing was bad 2 million to much per year if Stan waited he would have saved at least 2 million cat will be lucky to get 25 goals perfect example saad can’t pay guys 6 million plus that score 20 goals can pay grinders 3.9 million overpaying and bringing back ex hawks doesn’t work also no more no trades mcdummy out of picture now Stans on hot seat do you think we’re in trouble? Enough said

  29. Ok, here it is. I will distill everything bad about Bowman to one move; getting rid of a future NHL perennial All Star in Panarin for a used up Saad. He should be fired for that move alone

  30. So why is Bowman still there. From the dynasty era , the coach , President and some core players are gone . Some are saying to get rid of the other core players. If this team is going in a new direction why is only Bowman still there. What has he done in the last 5 years to warrant him keeping his job. The cupboard in Rockford is bare. So why is Bowman still there. If the team wants to go in another direction , wouldn’t you want someone with fresh philosophy and plan . I have no issue with the team going in a new direction , but not with Bowman at the helm. IMO the team will not have success with him leading the way.

  31. @HAWKFUD. Bingo. That’s when I took off my hawks Jersey !!!! I already new they were ruin by GM. Giving Contracts to Seabs. & Kieth & Bickell and the way Hossa had to leave for them to meet the cap ! Then they fire Q. The blame is on Rocky who doesn’t say wait a minute!!!!! This team blew from the time Hossa left and GM wasted piks and traded m. It starts from the Top and that’s rocky for not putting a end to Bowman contracts ! Personally I would of traded Toews before Panarin!!! Hockey is a business and this team is was run into the ground by a GM ! I want to thank Tallon ! I’ll wave goodbye to Bowman !

  32. People this is just continuing what has been started not a move to complete rebuild. What did Toews say, he wants to stay and win, he’s comes ready to win, not sure whats going on but he never heard anything about a rebuild, it sucks Crawford and Saad are gone, no doubt it does for the ones that been thru it all rogether.

    Last year Bowman spent up to the cap and everybody said all year he put us in cap hell with a team that had no chance to win. This year in flat cap low revenue era he clears some space, going with what his apparent budget could get. Everybody saying rebuild and either saying he should be fired or hoping for draft picks or both. Would you rather repeat last year, be in cap hell again with a green young group still sorting itself out and maybe miss playoffs. Or take a new direction and cut a little cost and help the overall bottom line, sure it’s tough for competitive players are as expected. Until we actually see whats going on, just be patient and see what’s what.

    Players aren’t to blame for they’re contracts, every one of us would do the same, anybody who says different is full of it. Neither are players who proved multiple times if given the proper support they are capable of winning it all responsible for not winning the last 5 years, c’mon. Just don’t get why when they gave so much so we could watch them win some people will cherry pick every opportunity to trash them anymore than i get the vandettas against Bowman either. Everybody vents but comes a time to get over it.

  33. Toews is over ten percent of the salary cap. I can tell from the comments the team is indeed frustrated with the coach . Losing Crawford obviously is not going to help the team and he was great in the playoffs, but keep in mind he was playing for a contract. just something to think about.

    Toews needs to understand this team is going to lose money and they need to manage the roster for the Seattle draft. Tradding Marta for nothing sucked. The Saad trade leaves you wanting more. Reading between the lines maybe Toews is upset with certain teammates. Hard to say who. My opinion of the current roster is….well it doesnt look good but if one or two of these prospects can break out they may not be in terrible shape. Obviously one of them needs to be a goalie. No goalie then going nowhere real simple.

    If Toews went public with these comments my bet is he already asked for a trade. His public comments seem to scream “I want to play I want to win.” Note that the state of the team may not be the real reason. Rmemeber Panarin signing seemed to be largely revolved around his girlfriend. Recall Progner’s wife demanding a trade? I’m sure Toews lives in a nice neighborhood, but maybe it’s the out of control city that’s playing a bigger factor in the decision. Bottom line I like the message from Toews regarding showing up in shape and wanting to win. Maybe hes referring to someone not

  34. Can’t blame Nathan Mackinnon for his team friendly 7 year $44,100,000 contact
    $6,300,000 average. Some players understand by leaving $$ on the table it enables their team to have better chance to win in the cap era.

    Not everyone feels the need to be greedy!

    These guys who make 10 million a year should not complain about anything especially their supporting cast.

  35. We need to take the keys away from Stan Bowman as he has driven the whole team
    off the bridge. We are having Cap problems for several years because of Bowman. Joe Sakic took Bowman to the cleaners with the Saad trade. A Top 6 left winger for a fourth or fifth defenseman and the Hawks have to keep over a million of Saad’s salary. No draft picks. Nice deal for prospects Stan. Sorry Stan, Sakic says, we need to used two draft picks for a Top 4 Defenseman who played in the Stanley Cup. When does it look like that the Blackhawks can win the Cup again? Guys who give their sweat and blood every year should be pissed.

  36. Is everybody having fun? Let’s all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. OK, that’s probably not going to happen. Did you ever feel like – screeds to the left of me, apologists to the right, stuck in this nightmare with you? You can’t say passions don’t run hot, so we got that going for us, which is nice.

  37. Serious question to ponder – if you were a world class athlete and were given the choice between getting paid $10.5M for 8 years ($84M) but you would have practically zero chance to win another championship – OR – you could get paid $6.5M for 8 years ($52M) and have a much better chance to win another championship – which would you choose?

    I’d take the larger payday with practically zero chance to win another championship, but I’m not a world class athlete who has worked my entire life with the goal of winning championships – so I can’t put myself in Toews’ skates on this issue.

    I do know one thing though, if I chose the bigger payday knowing it would reduce the probability for team success, I wouldn’t be chirping my displeasure at the way things have turned out. I signed away that right when I signed the mega contract.

  38. @Hawks29

    Its a good thing I have heartstrings to get pulled because I am a nurse.
    You can chastise me all you want, but I am old enough to have seen Larmer play; in fact he and Savvy are the ones that made me fall in love with hockey.
    I’ve never subscribed to the “shut up & play” mentality.
    Everyone gets to voice their opinion here, that’s why I appreciate Tab having this space.
    I don’t care for people who talk out of both sides of their mouth, and that’s what I feel the powers that be are doing here.
    Peace out.

  39. What part of keeping Stan Bowman makes sense. He doesn’t understand the needs of the players. Getting rid of Coach Q was only about saving his job. Most of his trades have been losers. Now letting Crawford go is the last straw. He has always been a top performer and great teammate. Bowman doesn’t care about players, winning or fans. We are going to lose all of the above.

  40. Trying to remember what year MacKinnon won a cup. Much of which warrants a higher salary. Then win 2 more.

  41. Sorry everyone but I think this so called controversy is a bit of a tempest in a teapot

    What Bowman said was that they were going to be looking for younger players who are ready to take the next step – he’s done that specifically with moving on from Crow and allowing space for the other three who are younger players – we’ll see if they’re ready to take it to the next level or not – but also with Zadorov, Janmark and Wallmark all players about 25/26 that speak about taking their game up a notch – again we’ll wait and see but he’s doing what he said he’d do – he didn’t say he was going for a total rebuild

    As for Toews despite being pissed about Crow’s departure he clearly said he’s not going anywhere and that probably means the others of the core 4 as well (except maybe Seabrook if he’s relegated to 7th D) and that he still wants to win – so that’s all good – that’s what you want from your captain

    It would have been better if Stan and told Toews their plan in advance so Toews could get behind it and say how much he believes in their young goalies but it also would have been better if Toews hadn’t spoken to the media just because he’s pissed his buddy was let go and he wasn’t told about it and instead talked to Stan – so call it a draw there – they both could have done better

    The Hawks have saved $ at the goal tending position and used it on 3 better defensive players which they desperately needed – assuming Strome is signed for about $2 mil the Hawks will have spent most of their cap $ with about $2 mil left over for AHL call ups or if they need to find a veteran goalie all of a sudden

    The proof will be in the pudding – if the Hawks play better as a a team they won’t need unbelievable goal tending just to stay close in games and if they win more often than last year whatever controversy this is will blow over

    If they don’t win more often people will say Toews is mailing it in because CC got traded and he wasn’t told and even more people will call for Bowman’ head – these are the real consequences of the recent moves rather than speculating that the Hawks are broken because Toews and Bowman aren’t lunch pals

  42. Toews is either dumber than a rock or incredibly naive if he can’t understand how the NHL works in the salary cap era. And he’s being paid $10.5 M a season for being a past his prime league average type Center at this stage. All Toews needs to do is to look at his own history in the NHL to understand the current reality of the Hawks. Hawks were terrible for near a decade leading up the 2007 draft. The one great benefit for being bad at hockey is high draft picks. One of which netted a future Hall of Famer in Toews and the captain of 3 Stanley Cup Champions. The fact that the Hawks won three Cups was actually remarkable. But eventually you have to pay the piper. Talent gets old, talent leaves for more money elsewhere, low draft picks start to take their toll on the organization’s cache of young talent to feed things, the salary cap bites you hard in the nuts…

    Toews can’t possibly be surprised and dismayed. He’s a hypocrite of the highest order if he is. And guess what, even if he waived his NMC there isn’t a team in hockey who is taking on a 32 year old average Center with his huge contract. So maybe shut up and keep smiling Jonathan.

    Stephanie, I was in the stands for the heady days of the Blackhawks in the early 80s. The smoke so thick and the rafters shaking when Savard and company delivered some truly great hockey at The Stadium. But I dare say even that bunch would tell you that sentimentality has no business on hockey. Denny Savard himself recognized that winning a Cup in Chicago wasn’t going to happen, so he got himself shipped to his homeland in Montreal where he won a Cup. And the great Steve Larmer snd Dougie Wilson also wore different sweaters in the end. And hell, where wasn’t a salary cap back then. Just the alcoholic chain smoking duo of Dollar Bill Wirtz and Bob Pulford to contend with.

  43. Until such time as the Hawks stop selling out despite their inferior record, senior management will do nothing. I have been a Hawk fan for 62 years. This is a sad time. Fans boycott the stadium once the pandemic disappears and then you will see change!

  44. @Live From The Big Barn:

    “Just the alcoholic chain smoking duo of Dollar Bill Wirtz and Bob Pulford to contend with”.

    Hot damn that made me literally laugh out loud just now. !!!!!

    I appreciate all the banter. Even the chastising and calling out.
    It’s been a rough go since ~March 17 and this is a good distraction.
    Count me as a fan of the happily ever after kind of Messier-type endings.
    I guess this is my sign to change my attitude to root for individual players and not my hometown team.

  45. “Organizations win championships.” Seems like Stan might subscribe to this line of thinking. See what it did for your cell mates, 22 years and counting.

    Look, does he have to consult his top players, absolutely not. Do smart GM’a take the time to get their top players on board, absolutely yes. The problem here is that Stan has no plan. I get the MCD factor but now he’s out of the nest and on his own. Player development is non existent, draft history has been spotty, trades have been even spottier. So what’s the plan Stan? Are we going youth movement, retool on the fly? Who knows with this guy.

    I’d be interested to get an unencumbered analysis from one of his peers. It’d be interesting to hear the good, bad and ugly.

  46. Strictly hypothetical, so no guarantees, but it’s possible, if not plausible.

    If McD had final say on major personnel moves, and I think there’s been enough smoke through the years to suspect there’s a fire there, then Stan has had his hands tied on the major things that also affect lesser things downstream. If that is the case, at least in part, then Stan hasn’t had much time to implement his plan. Starting from the time McD left, the roster was more than one offseason away from getting fixed. Maybe it takes two seasons and offseasons before the plan starts coming into focus. Maybe three. I’m not sure about how long it will take but I’m pretty sure it will take more than on offseason to complete the retool/rebuild.

    Now, if that’s a bunch of rubbish and the truth is that McD didn’t meddle and every move for the last decade was 100% Stan’s decisions – then the Stan anger is justified, but I don’t believe Stan was autonomous. Not one little bit.

  47. One more point. Rocky didn’t veto Q from being fired, he fired McD, and yet Stan is still there. That’s informative. Rocky installed his son Peter as Stan’s boss which could provide a buffer for firing Scotty’s son, but so far Stan is still the GM running the draft and free agent team restructuring. That’s informative too.

    So I might be the lone voice in the wilderness on this but I think I’m closer to Rocky’s thinking than the Stan haters are. Give it some consideration.

  48. ER – It has been my belief as stated here before that there indeed has been a mess around the process of personnel decisions with this team for many years.

    Why, when everyone on earth who knows anything about hockey, do the Hawks finally get their 2nd line center at the trade deadline in Vermette, and then he plays wing on the third line? Oh yeah – and then gets scratched. Why does Kempny spend a year in the press box and then get traded to Washington for a 3rd round pick ? Was Washington that stupid? Was TT too soft to play in the NHL and by whose standards? Who actually wanted Timonen to come in for the Hawks?

    I can’t answer any of those questions, but they are a few of the obvious ego wars that took place during the cup run. And there were more. Why did they take place? I always thought it was Stan vs Joel. Ultimately, Joel lost the war, to whomever he was fighting with.

    Were Stan and McD ego clashing too or instead of Stan and Joel? I had the unfortunately experience of dealing with McD when he was running the Cubs, and I can say with full confidence that there was plenty of ego in him to cover for an entire hockey team.

    I don’t know the answer to all of the crazy player personnel decisions made in the past and the obvious refusal of Q to use the players. But there surely seemed to be something up 6 or 7 years ago that has trickled along. I felt that last season was the first season of Stan’s pure control over the personnel, but maybe – as you are suggesting – this is the first year.

    Had we chosen to take the time to work in some of the fringe players along the way, we may actually had been able to develop a few more players while they were part of the NHL roster. Instead, we dog-housed them to death, while simultaneously trading away our top draft spots and failing to develop anything in the AHL.

    It’s been a cluster of dynasty deflating proportion, and was in front of us the entire time. Dysfunction has been here for quite a while. Many here on this board just refused to think it possible that our heroes could actually be humans with faults.

  49. I’m sure there were extenuating circumstances, some of which we know and probably some we don’t know looking at it from the outside.

    One obvious extenuating circumstance was the Cap stagnated at the same time T&K signed their mega deals. Bill Daly or some other NHL poobah always gives a guestimate like half way through the season on that they project the Cap will be. I don’t recall the exact timing but I think the guestimate was already being lowered a bit before T&K signed because I remember (1) being disappointed they didn’t sign for less, but also (2) having a foreboding feeling that it was to risky to count on the cap going so optimistically high. Hindsight shows that to one of main missteps on salary cap management and the effect on the roster. Was it Stan who decided to max deal T&K? I don’t think so because it sounds more probable the great marketing guru wanted to take care of the faces of the franchise to ensure they wouldn’t be making Chevy commercials in another market. Stan was left to deal with the ramifications.

  50. There are some really interesting posters on this site. First of all, I can’t understand how people can whine about Q being fired. He was coach of the Blackhawks team that quit during games. Remember the 33 shot first period fiasco against Tampa Bay – an NHL record? That was a team that had quit. You can argue about his replacement, but arguing about it being time for Q to go seems futile. It was time. Do not forget that many of us complained about his handling of younger players and the “Q doghouse.”

    I wonder what impact Toews’ whining is having on the new players. He is basically whining about them being brought to the team, isn’t he? How much of it is about Crawford is hard to know. One can have very mixed emotions about Toews. He led the Hawks to 3 Cups and then had two seasons after that where he was playing like a $4 million center, but was collecting $10.5. It is a bit difficult to get past that. His salary has been one of the detriments to bringing on the talent needed to make another run. He is playing much better now, but not $10.5 mil worth. Any notion that Stan and Rocky had another option to signing Toews and Kane to those deals is folly. Toews and Kane could have demanded more and they probably had to do it. From a business perspective, letting them test free agency was untenable and the fans would have been angry.

    Everybody grasps that the Hawks have been soft in recent years. These new players are changing that. During a salary dump, other GMs know what is going on. It’s hard to get equal value. The Hawks probably didn’t get equal value from Saad, but that still doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing. How impactful was Saad. He was an important piece on a lousy team.

    Colliton may be a mediocre coach. I don’t know. It is hard to imagine Q or anybody else doing much better with this roster. Do not forget that we spend most of our time griping about the limited roster. Did anybody think that this was going to be turned around without some pain and disruption?

  51. ER, yea its easy to take a discount or less then your worth/at the time when you havnt won before/nothing yet not even a conference final then when your a Cup champion once let alone the rare players that achieved a dynasty.

    Theres the difference. People have said here for yrs about taking the higher salary/caphit when a player has th chance to because they only have so many/sometimes once time chance to cash in and its there entire careers.

    So I like the players who do the discounts/less that does help the team roster but not mad at the players who take what they are worth/19 88. What I do not like os the overpaid players who take more then they are worth/at the time like a lot of those overpaid ufas we see each yr/and other examples.

  52. The salary cap was suppose to ne wau higher those yrs when 19 88 did the 10.5 and then it wasnt so it would hvae been 9-9.5 if knew the cap/or cap was correctly announced. Yrs later would have been 10.5 anyways.

    Another thing is you also need some players like Dunks Hoss on caphits like 5 and change when they are 10 m players as well/at the time.

    Dunks- 5.5
    Hoss- 5.5
    Toews- 10.5
    Kane- 10.5

    32 m for 4 not Cup winners but for Cup dynasty players. Which is 8 m per player and that is fair for those kind of players in there prime of there prime yrs.

  53. No problem with Toews chirping.
    Keith did as well in The Athletic article. Don’t care about that either.
    People say that they wish Toews would stop whining on the ice and off.
    Someone has to voice some concern, because Colliton sure doesn’t (on the ice). Off the ice he’s just a lap dog.
    Yep, they cash big checks. Don’t care about that.

    And I don’t care if his skills have dropped off, he’s still the team captain.
    If one is competitive, they want to win. I want players who want to win. They’re closer to Stan Bowman than I am, and it appears they are fed up with what they view as being mislead. If you read Stan’s statements, his reported comments to Crawford, and then look at his actions ….. he’s all over the board himself.

    Anyone who disagrees, we will have to agree to disagree.

  54. EB not sure it was McDough medfling so much as his job is direction of team. The one more shift, Blackhawks family, bringing back former hawks off and on the ice to be part of it, as well as locking up the core long term were all probably what his vosion of ice product should be. Times are different now, the one place Danny Wirtz fit into ensuring a new direction of tightening the purse strings a bit was Danny Wirtz as interm President and CEO. That said the other contracts, draft picks and moves not bringing fan favorites back or in, maybe Kunitz signing all the rest on Bowman. Question now is making the right on ice decisions going forward and developing, not let good young players get away, while opportunity allows them too, through flat cap year or 2.

  55. ER – I had the same sinking feeling when T and K signed those 10.5 deals (even before knowing the cap wasn’t going to rise as much as perhaps Stan predicted) – it was going to be very difficult to win another Cup with 2 players making over $10 mil

    In fact has there been a team yet with 2 players making over $10 mil win the Cup – I don’t think so – someone correct me if I’m wrong

    I think the LA Kings are a good comparison for the Hawks and their decline – they were the Hawks biggest rivals for a significant part of the Hawks run and won 2 Cups themselves but they couldn’t sustain it either – bottomed out even faster than the Hawks with fewer Cups to show for it and still trying to get back to respectability

    My point being that the salary cap is an inescapable culprit in the the Hawks current situation – not absolving Stan, he has to be accountable for his moves but just being realistic

    As other have said Toews should know this as well and I think he does but he got caught up in his emotions around Crawford – it happens – I don’t really hold it against him and I think things between him and Stan will be worked out amicably

  56. @Big Indian:

    thank you.

    Ironic- root for the guys to have “passion” and “love for the game” and “show some emotion” while they are on on the ice…. (while The Wet Noodle Jeremy is behind the bench)
    but then off the they are supposed to “stop whining” and “don’t get so emotional”.
    Feelings are complicated.

    I’ll leave now.

  57. Oh oh … I feel the old curmudgeon coming out of me … oh geez, here it comes …

    Feelings shmeelings. I want my “heroes” to be as tough on the inside as they are on the outside, so they can stick their feelings where the sun don’t shine. Kick ass, take names and keep those little hurt feeling to yourself.

    hey, wait a minute …
    no you don’t …
    get over here …
    take your hands off me …
    get back in there and behave yourself

    OK, I got my curmudgeon alter-ego back under control. Sorry he got out … sometimes it happens.

  58. Indian, think feel the same way about Toews Keith. Black and White/Night and Day between that and complaing too much about faceoffs/even though they changed the rules and are not consistent. Only pretty boy like Crosby get everything called there way/get it right-the call.

  59. For those in the work place, is it not expected that management share the vision and strategy for the company or department with its employees? As a manager you do not ask the employees to approve the vision/startegy but you share it and justify it in order to get buy in from the team.

    The Hawks need Toews to lead the team on the ice while he is team captain. How can anyone expect him to lead and mentor the younglings if he is not briefed and bought into the know of the rebuild plan. Toews does not get to approve the plan however he should be briefed.

    This is just another example of the piss poor leader and GM that Bowman is. The rebuild will not evolve into contending as long as SB is GM.

  60. To set the record straight – Toews was embarrassing himself by b#tching everytime he got thrown out of the faceoff circle years before Colliton took over as coach. Q either didn’t have a problem with it or couldn’t control it.

  61. How can you tell if Toews is going to support the rebuild and mentor the younglings if you don’t talk to him. If he is not bought in, you work with him to find and acceptable trade. If he is bought in, Toews becomes a more valuable resource on the ice that with aid and hopefully expedite the rebuild. Either way, it is incumbent on the GM to communicate. Bowman’s grade remains an F

  62. HHNL, just to play this scenario out – so what if Bowman called Toews to ask him if he was onboard with mentoring the young players in this youth movement and Toews said ‘no’. What happens then? Should Stan capitulate and say well ok then, I’ll scrap the youth movement plan?

    C’mon. If anything, Stan should assume that his charges would follow his generalship of being the GENERAL manager. Descension in the ranks weakens the team. Get in line and do your job.

  63. Wrap – following up your point, take a look at the list of players with cap hits over $10m. Last year there were 13 players. The Hawks had 2, the Leafs had 3 and the Kings had 2. There appears to be a pretty low correlation between the highest paid players and team success. I wonder if we won’t see more GM’s taking a “moneyball” approach to constructing their rosters, especially with so much financial uncertainty.

  64. I would say every team that has won since 2008 has had a player/s around the 10 m mark/if not then when they did there next contract.

    Now maybe we had the most 2 81 19 88 but they wernt at 10 because of the discounts/based on longer yrs by 2 81.

    VEG is hte ideal ‘balanced’ team/and after not winning/pounded by WAS and getting beat by DAL when they had a better roster/more top end players then they did vs WAS. They go and Get a 10 m player with Pie. Thats what VEG was missing the 10 m kind of players.

    Top heavy is not good when salary cap is flat like the yr 19 88 got contracts and now for 3 yrs. Once salary cap allows top team to have depth its the teams with more 10 m players/elite players that are the better teams.

  65. If Bowman cannot get the roster to top 3 teams status with the reload/rebuild/retool/tankandtop5er then he can get it started and do some of it just donot mess it up by trading younger players/prospects. If there is a problem with the devloping/rockford/other/drafting rounds 3-7 then get those things fixed.

    We cant have everything every org has its weakness. Just get more things like the euro scouting and were going to be fine.

  66. ER, was agreeing with what you were saying about other things. Just agreeing with Indian/HHNL/MS on the 19 2 stuff.

  67. If Toews performs like a #1 Center the last 4 years and Saad puts up power forward numbers with Goals in the 30,s and Crawford,s health is not in question we would not be having these discussions.But the facts are,Toews is performing at a #3 Center level,Saad was performing at a 3rd line level forward,and Crawford,s health is an issue daily.If we look at this honestly and positively Dach makes huge improvement and takes over as the #1 Center,Toews will be the #3 Center,and we need to go out and get a #2 Center. Dach-Kane-Kubalik-#1 Line ???-DeBrincat-Suter-#2 Line Toews-Janmark-Hagel-#3 Line Walmark-Pirri-Cam MORRISON-#4 Line. Defense-Zadorov-Kalykuk Keith-Murphy DeHaan-Mitchell.Goalie=???

  68. Supreme Being just traded Ed Belfour for Michal Sykora, and Jeremy Roenick for Alexi Zhamnov….oh wait.

    Nevermind. Was having a flashback while watching Bowman create a powerhouse.

  69. Apparently my inner curmudgeon is still a bit chapped with this whole notion of “feelings”. I grew up a million years ago when a kid got a little owie he was told to rub some dirt in it and shut up. We used to say sticks and stones will break your bones but names will never hurt you. Now, this politically correct microaggression conscious soyboy society is about enough to make me puke.

    There, I feel better now that I got that off my chest. I better go, it’s time for my nap.

  70. Putting on my GM hat on and seeing what I would do if in that chair at this time.

    Maybe help out a cap crunch team.
    AZ: Taking Stepan or Kessel with Raanta at 50% plus a 4th for our 5th rounder and Delia.

    STL: Bozak for 50% and their 3rd for our 4th.

    Ana: Backes at 50% and their 3rd and 5th for our 6th

    Of course these seem weighted one way but you start somewhere. move to take on all the money or different picks .

    What moves do you wish or have in mind?

  71. JR, I’m with you on that concept. If this truly is a “write off” year in terms on making the playoffs (hint: it is), then use available cap space to acquire draft picks. The only caveat being that they be 1-year deals so they don’t hamper flexibility in 2022.

  72. Great question ER. If I were to play this out I would ask him to waive his no trade clause and which teams would he prefer to go to if he is not willing to participate in the rebuild.

    You bring up a second good point “get in line and do your job”. Use the discussion to set expectations, share with him where the line is. Winning the cup is the ultimate goal, to get there you El Captain need to lead and mentor the younglings. Lead by example, and for the love of God stop bitching at the dot. Teach them how to be professional NHLers. We know Rockford is not getting the job done.

    If Johnny buys in, nothing would make me happier than watching retire with the “C”, and him host another cup. However as the saying goes, you are either part of the solution or you are the problem.

  73. Part of a being a good General Manager is being good at managing your people, part of his job description if he is doing his job. How that had to be done, nothing says it has to be one way or the other but definitely don’t want what occurred here.

  74. With Dach 2.5m in performance bonuses, plus Nylander, Boqvist, Mitchell, Suter and Kalynuk all with potential $850,000 perf. bonuses each that,s 6.75m that could be earned. Not all will but maybe 3.5 to 4m could be possible. Maybe that cap space is to avoid any overages again next year. Had to carry 1.1m from last season, likely wants to avoid any carryover next summer.

  75. Bickell brought up again????? The man got MS and I always thought he was a playoff player. No need to be crushing people every night. Be reasonable. Overpaid? Slightly but even the 2015 cup run he was a piece of the pie. Three cups came with Bickell granted . Three. Almost four. Go ahead and bring up 2010 only five games. I see four points in those five. Moving Teuvo with Bickell sucked but the Vegas draft was happening and Teuvo needed to be moved. I sont agree with how they moved him. Hard to believe they couldnt find a different trade for teuvo. Maybe we need to blame the doctor for not identifying that Bickell had MS. Do we need to do a whole team and management analysis? The return for Bickell and Teuvo : A second and third round pick that would never play for the Blackhawks. Maybe Saad should have been traded for a second and third round pick instead right?

    Remember this when asking to trade whomever for a draft pick. Not every pick turns out and often it takes years and seemingly more so do players find their stride on their second or third team.

    Where do we start and where do end?

    Bottomline player development in the minors basically doesnt exist. Few if any have made thejump. This is a major major problem.

    What is the rule on call ups from the minors? Is there a limit as to how many they can do per season? The Blackhawks have a dozen waiver exempt players.

    What does the Seattle draft protection currently look like? Its worth taking a preseason examination, perhaps in a few weeks after Strome is decided on. Perhaps the Seattle draft is one of the hiccups for signing Strome.

    Regarding konitz I can basically guarentee he approached the Blackhawks about playing here and not the other way around. He wanted to live in Illinois crazy as that sounds. May have been the same for Ward. I believe a family member was receiving special medical care in Chicago. Whatever if the organization was accomadating to individuals whatevrr that was their decision and hopefully some good came from it in particular for Ward.

    Whatever happened to the “Toews is playing hurt ” it’s somehow mutated into “Toews is a third line center” yeah okay. I’m not sure we are looking at the same player. Remember when quenville had toews taking faceoffs then running right back to the bench? Cmon. Toews put up career high points recently and still plays a defensive game. For those of you who havent looked at his stats please do so. Toews had a career high in point just one season ago I’ll say again….Toews had a career high in points one season ago. Okay okay 2013 was on pace to be higher if it were a full season.

    How often do they shove rookies on his line. Kane and toews almost never play together yet when they do often they win those games. Speaking of people not playing together why are best friends debrincat and strome not locked together??? I understand there have been games where it doesnt work but my goodness what’s the alternative?

    Read a wall mark interview and he said things most here would love to hear.

    I find it funny people calling for the trading of toews and kane because the oft injured Crawford, with all due respect, and inevitable bye bye free agent Saad are gone. Crawford wanted to play a bulk of the season. That’s pretty public and I assume it true. Tell me how that works out this next season which will probably be very compact? My net is not as well as we like. Backup goalies likely to see more action this year across the league.

    The real problem in my eyes is the Blackhawks despite having the best goalie tandem last year still were not going to make the playoffs and were robbed of the higher draft pick. They should have tanked in the Edmonton series. If this was about rookies getting playoffs experience then the rookies should have played top minutes especially against Edmonton even if it meant upsetting Toews and Kane. The Blackhawks were robbed of a higher draft pick. Period.

  76. I am with you Eb,

    I hear/see so many soft people so easily offended, and so quick to point the finger (or camera) at anybody but themselves.

    Reminds me of my old hockey coach.
    When we were playing like crap he used to bellow out, ‘You Guys Ain’t Tough’.

    It would lite a fire every time.

    I could yell that at society, today.

    But they would just get offended.

  77. Just to straighten out a couple of facts…..Toews and Kane did NOT sign max deals when they inked their current contracts. At that time based on the cap the max deal they could have signed would have been $12.5 million per year. Which, if the Hawks did not give them something they liked, there would have been about 20 teams lining up to give them $12.5 a year at that time. For 3 time cup winners, the deals were fair and NOT in any way max deals. They could have insisted and got more.

    Now, it’s a fact the cap did not go up as much as anticipated, so the deals seem more cumbersome than they would have been otherwise. But I am still waiting for a team to win the cup with any player making over $10 million a year. I don’t think it has been done yet.

    McKinnon signed his current deal before he became the superstar he is today. So don’t get the idea he is this Tom Brady like team first guy who took a way under value contract to help the team. Want proof? Look at his next deal. It will be over 10 Million a year, guaranteed.

  78. Some housecleaning:

    Hereismike, I used the term “max deal” in an earlier post in the context of big dollar deal or mega deal – didn’t mean to use it as the technical definition of maximum allowed.

    Ian, Part of being a good General Manager is to manage people – I agree. However, I think there is a disconnect in the way I think people should be managed versus the way others think people should be managed and I readily admit I’m the old school oddball on that.

    HHNL, I’ve been critical of Toews lately but I too would like to see Toews retire as a Hawk. The things I’ve been critical about don’t outweigh the things he’s done to bring Stanley Cups and lots of joy to me and all Hawks fans.

    BTW, I disagree with those who hold the notion that Toews is now only a #3C. He may not be as good as he was 5-10 years ago but I think he is still a #1C. He isn’t the best #1C in the league and he’s probably not even in the top half of #1C’s in the league but I doubt I could find 31 other #1C’s that I would take over Toews.

  79. Lots of threads here…lots of words. Plusses and minuses. Lots of it very interesting and insightful. All of it from loyal Blackhawk fans. Bottom line, where do we go from here? To me, answering that question only comes after ownership admitting the real and biggest albatross is Stan Bowman.

  80. Sports is about Winning.. its not a marriage where you stay together Forever …
    Players get old.. need to be moved… Nature of Sports… Chicago Fans don’t get it.
    Who seriously goes to a Hawks game to watch a certain player that they LOSE WITH & say they enjoyed the game? Toews Will never Leave due to the fact he will LOSE THAT “C” on his jersey and be 3rd line material.. Hawks Roster is weak as they can’t Score Enough goals … That puts emphasis on DEFENSE!
    enuf said….

  81. Honest for expansion draft by memory: 1 goalie can be protected all 3 vying for spots this year are under contract for 2 more years. That covers there, other 2 not protected meet compliancy rules.

    Defense eligible: Keith, Seabrook(automatic nmcs), Murphy, Dehaan, Zadorov, Carlsson, Lindholm and Krys.
    Forwards eligible: Kane, Toews( auto nmcs), Debrincat, Strome, Nylander, Janmark, Kampf, Shaw, Carpenter, Highmore, Hagel, Johnson and Quenneville.

    Seeler, Smith, Wallmark, Pirri are ufas not eligible. Rfas are part of it and would need protection if not exempt. All not listed are exempt because of more than 2 year service time requirements in Ahl or Nhl needed to be eligible.

    Teams can protect 7 skaters and 3 dmen or 8 skaters along with a goalie. So more dmen coupd be ptotected if they didn’t feel 7 fwds needed protected. 1 forward and 1 dman who plays 40 games next season or 60 games last season and next. Anybody happens to be ltir all this season doesn’t need protected.

    So basically right now you would think 8 skaters with 4 or 5 D protected could be a possibility.

    EB Bowman knew McDonough took time to talk with star players on team plans every off season, that’s well documented. If Bowman didn’t want to do that he could have dealt with it professionally instead of what came across like pouting to media, i don’t have to if i don’t want to. Kane put that fire out for him and this time Toews called him out, is what it looks like to me. As far as McDonough and players making life tough for Bowman, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. He too could have went somewhere else if he didn’t like it. If dealt with properly by him i believe this would have been avoided and his silence to me says as much.

    Hereismike agree.

  82. Couple of oops. Wallmark eligible and Janmark ufa isn’t.

    Should also say 1 forward and 1 dman who plays 40 games next season or 60 games last and next season combined need to be left unprotected for Seattle to be compliant.

  83. Here is a criticism I have with Stan – if my assumption is correct that McD was the real decision maker, at least on the big decisions, then my criticism of Stan would be that he allowed himself to be used as a figure head in order to secure and keep his job as GM. I don’t believe it was as black and white as I’m making it sound, but Stan is indicted either way in this scenario.

  84. I don’t mind the moves Stan has made this off season except for the goalie situation

    It’s a huge gamble if they going to go with 3 unproven players in the most pressurized position in hockey – maybe maybe once Strome is signed and Stan sees how much $ he has left he’ll bring in a vet on the cheap or clear some more space with a DeHaan trade and bring in a younger goalie like Kuemper but I’m not gonna hold my breath

  85. Wrap should be alot of goalie options coming up before expansion draft, so hopefully they’re in on one.

  86. Awwww Tim.W ……you so smart …we have been looking for a number 2 center for years now ….who we blame ??? Crow ? Toews ? nooooooooo Saad ?

    Your post is delusional . Lets blame players who give there best every game …how bout look at the supporting cast or lack of one . how about we look at who coaches and assembles this team .

  87. Johny Wayne wont leave the team like Rask/others did. Hes a true winner his whole life. He do what your saying and be a leader. Donot blame him for wanting things to be/get right direction here and then were on same page.

    October 15, 2020 at 12:55 pm
    If Johnny buys in, nothing would make me happier than watching retire with the “C”, and him host another cup. However as the saying goes, you are either part of the solution or you are the problem.

  88. Yes lots and lots of good posts. Pretty much everyone here is good posters. Correcting the facts when people use something to get point across.

    To think 19 is not as good as 15 1 line centers in league now. How many of them are one of two best centers in league like he was from 20-30 and will any still be 176th best when they are 19 age. I say none will be.

    Remember 19 went against other teams top line most 1 line center donot they go against check line.

    19 is just not in prime of prime yrs anymore. Still some prime yrs left just not the peak of his prime yrs. Still no line in hockey could withstand the 20 19 81 line.

  89. If these guys wanted to win and knew that they were going to lose Panarin because he couldn’t be re-signed. Wouldn’t they each have take a million or two less, so that the next “star” could also get paid as well as they were getting paid? Stamkos took less money so Tampa could pay some of their other stars, and now he has a Cup. So, if they weren’t so greedy, they might not have anything to gripe about. Stan is not blameless here, but neither is the core – no more!

  90. My biggest frustration (@Hawk29 & ER it has nothing to do w/feelings this time, so feel free to come after me for some other reason):
    The return on the most recent Saad trade makes ZERO sense. Got rid of a forward (a need since 2012), while adding two defensemen of which there is a backlog– 17 at my last count on Cap Friendly.

    WTF has Stan done to warrant keeping his job? ?

  91. Tommy Florida has no income tax, your comparing apples and oranges, end of the day not really taking less money, just a negotiating advantage some teams benefit from.

  92. Folks:

    Stefanie is spot on w/ her criticism of the return for Saad. Not only is the blue line NOT an area of need at the moment, but there likely would have been a better market for Saad after Taylor Hall signed. The fact that Hall signed a one-year deal for $8M means “renting” Saad for 1/$6M actually isn’t crazy for some of the runners-up for Hall. Furthermore, as we wrote in a number of places, trading him inside the division for that return only amplifies the weakness of the deal. Colorado is now a Cup favorite; the Hawks now have more bodies to try to navigate on the blue line.

    Now, if Bowman has more moves in his back pocket to clear cap space/room on the blue line (read: dealing Murphy or de Haan), we’re all still waiting to see it. But they dumped Maatta’s deal for nothing because they didn’t need what he brings to the table… and then replaced him w/ Zadorov. So how effective were Bowman’s trades? You traded Saad & Maatta for Zadorov and $5M in cap space that hasn’t been used to really impact the NHL roster.

  93. IMO trading Panarin away and bringing back Saad was the total blunder.

    Saad is unrestricted at the end of next season making 6 million. While Saad is a big body he is not a physical player. Has anyone ever seen Saad lay a big hit on anyone?
    Losing Saad and gaining cap space plus Zadorov who cannot walk away after next season was a good move.
    Bowman now has brought in some cheap forward depth that will easily replace Saad.

    Extra defencemen should not be an issue as they can be easily traded.

    Zadorov is going to be exactly what the Hawks defence has been missing for a few years now. Having a huge physical defenceman with a bomb for a shot is going to be fun to watch. If you are not sure how physical Zadorov is check out some of his hits on YouTube. I watched the Dallas VS Colorado series in the playoffs and was impressed with Zadorov and I for one like this pickup for Chicago.

  94. Stefanie, I meant to offense. I like your posts and your contributions here. Your use of the word feelings was simply the match that lit my inner curmudgeon, but truth be told the old fella has become a tinder box against what he might call the feelings shmeelings culture we find ourselves living in. Sometimes it’s my pressure release valve and rather than steam shooting out my ears it bangs out my fingers on the keyboard … my apologies.

  95. If I had to point to one move Stan made that was the most troublesome, it was the signing of Seabrook to his current $6.8M contract.

    Most moves can not be viewed in isolation because most moves are connected to previous moves and affect future moves – a particular move usually either begets future moves or restricts them in some way – they are a collection of connected dots which make identifying the starting point a near impossibility.

    Seabrook’s deal, on the other hand, is one of those starting point moves that can be identified without a RICO level fact finding investigation. The effect that move has had is significant and on-going, but there was no predicate move which influenced the decision to give Seabrook that contract. The only plausible explanation is a reward for services rendered which could warm the cockles of humanity’s heart but is a very stupid shortsighted business move.

    Having said all that, I’m still of the opinion it was McD – not Stan – who drove that deal to its injurious conclusion, but at the least I feel justified in holding Stan accountable for not doing what he could to stop it up to and including tendering his resignation rather than be a party to a move that would hurt the team.

  96. EB agree and have said all along i think the big contracts for core players was something McDonough pushed. That said paying for services recieved has still produced more results than any other option yet.

    See Strome still expected to sig just not ina rush yo get it done

  97. Sorry ER, sometimes I get a little fired up. It’s hard to read tone thru the interwebs. I’ve gotten dismissed before bc you know–I’m a girl & hockey is a hard sport to grasp & my knowledge can’t be more than who I think is cute.

    Also, a few more questions:
    Are we sure Strome is staying? Do we need him now that we have Janmark and Wallmark?
    I also want to say I do NOT have any faith in Wet Noodle Jeremy’s in-game decisions regarding lines and ice time; especially now that Saad is gone.
    (See: Quenneville, John TOI in last game vs. EDM)


  98. Jeremy’s in-game decisions and incomprehensible line changes stink. C’mon. Everybody but Rocky Wirtz believes this guy should still be in the minor leagues, coaching if you will. The only reason he was hired was to assure Stan he could push the coach around.

  99. Stape,In the words of Doc Holliday,”I think I am beginning to love you”.Again you are right on with your comments on Zadorov and Saad.I would not have ate the Million but I definitely would have done the deal straight up.Zadorov,Janmark,and Walmark are a nice beginning to what this team needs.Much work to be done for sure but a good start.Clear the softness out of that room.Nylander and Strome next?

  100. I agree the return we got for Saad is maddening. Think, we traded Saad once, got the russian center and some spare parts, Columbus traded him, got PANARIN! We traded him again, got Zadorov when we have too many slow dmen already. We probably have the slowest defense core in the league bar none and it’s not close. In an era of speed hockey, we ice Zadorov, Seabs, DeHaan, Murphy, and really outside of Keith and Boquist, and maybe Mitchell, we don’t have any plus skating dmen.

    And by the way, Toews and Kane could not have taken less on their deals to resign Panarin because we didn’t even have Panarin when they signed those deals. How could they in July of 2014 say hey, let’s take less so we can resign a guy that didn’t even sign with the hawks until April 2015? And no one even knew how good he was yet?

  101. Stef, prob the ok to do the full reset/with keeping 19 88 2/maybe other to load young wave his way and how he wants. Then once younger players are established if the team is not gelling/having better records reach yr/and or gaining in playoffs each yr/like COL seems to be then yea until then he prob has full throttle on it with the ok from Wirtz.

    Hey we all said Wirtz its time man and he did it.

  102. This is why I agree with Stape and even though it looks like ER wifes recipie at times were not seeing every piece of the puzzle here. Have to look at big picture and adjusting roster/the whole package/zoom out.

    Honest, is on with the expansion draft stuff Bowman will have roster set up so se lose noone of importance and maybe make a deal that we add a prospect/or something somehow. Since were in position to do that.

    October 16, 2020 at 9:03 am

    Most moves can not be viewed in isolation because most moves are connected to previous moves and affect future moves – a particular move usually either begets future moves or restricts them in some way – they are a collection of connected dots which make identifying the starting point a near impossibility.

  103. This.

    TIM W.
    October 16, 2020 at 10:39 am
    Stape,In the words of Doc Holliday,”I think I am beginning to love you”.Again you are right on with your comments on Zadorov and Saad.I would not have ate the Million but I definitely would have done the deal straight up.Zadorov,Janmark,and Walmark are a nice beginning to what this team needs.Much work to be done for sure but a good start.Clear the softness out of that room.Nylander and Strome next?

  104. There is context that has to be remembered when we consider trades. re: ” trading Panarin away and bringing back Saad was the total blunder.” – Panarin was going to be a big ticket free agent they couldn’t afford to keep or protect from Vegas. Saad was cost controlled for 2 years longer than Panarin and the club knew they were going to need to replace what Hossa was to the lineup. That was a calculated trade in the cap circumstances of the team that I understood on some levels… I think, like Saad now, they could have done better in the deal but at the same time the line of teams willing to rent Panarin before he went after $10M per (and likely in NYC) wasn’t that long.

    Contracts are the tougher one to swallow. I understand why the Hawks signed Seabrook to the lifetime contract they did; he’s been a huge part of the team’s success and they wanted to assure him he wouldn’t ever need to wear another jersey. But the dollars are off. Seabrook signed the deal and I will never fault a player for signing a deal the club offers; the headache of the money there is completely on Bowman. But once the deal is signed, it’s then on the GM to make the money work to keep the team competitive. The Penguins were top-heavy financially when they won back-to-back titles. Tampa has expensive contracts as well. But they have developed talent and brought in reinforcements from inside those organizations.

  105. Seabrook deserves the opportunity to return to the ice after surgery designed to improve mobility and reduce pain after playing injured and in pain for years.

    Amazing all the Seabrook bashing when deHaan who had played less than 40 career games, including the playoffs, get very little mention in comparison. It’s insulting and borderline disgusting. The cap hit difference between the two is minimal. By the way Seabrook played more games than dehaan last season.

    Most every team has at least one bad contract. I would never have given Seabrook such an expensive or long contract if I were gm, but it is what it is and tell me if you were the player would you turn it down? I bet not one of you would.

    As long as we are on the subject of defenseman. Keith’s actual salary might make him the best bang for the buck defenseman in the league over the age of 25.

  106. Great posts on this thread. A couple of points that were brought up and really important, I do think a part of the GM job is to communicate with your top players. As someone who manages a ton of people, this is a hard step but it can make the forthcoming changes so much easier. You share the plan, line out the way behind it and give some time for the top players to adjust. Now, if they ain’t on board, you move on from them. That simple. It’s not a negotiation, it’s an education so they know what’s coming and what the plan is. If I have a fault with Stan, it’s not the individual moves, though there’s plenty to gripe about. It’s the lack of a plan or seeming lack of a plan while operating in a vacuum. Say what you want about Toews and Keith, they are owed nothing but if they are vocalizing this is in the media when they generally haven’t done that over the years, there’s a problem. The problem is communication. Whether you agree or not, it tips the hand to see and hear this.

  107. I know this will piss off my buddy Tim W., whose posts I love reading as he is usually spot-on. But, with the $5M in cap space, I would sign the Strome brothers! Ryan was outstanding in NY last year, and I remember against us, he was money! But, it took him a couple of years to get acclimated and learn how to play NHl hockey on a consistent basis. I think playing with his brother will force Dylan to “toughen up”. The sibling rivalry and pushing each other will do wonders for each Strome brother, and having Patrick Kane on your line won’t hurt either!

  108. Being a physical hockey player is more than just laying big hits. It’s being strong on the puck, being able to outwork an opponent in the corners, it’s about a tough back-checker, penalty killer and someone who wins those loose puck battles. Saad had all those qualities. If you watch Towes enough, he does this well too. As much as Zadarov will bring physically, I weigh that against the lack of strong forwards who did the Saad-like work. I do like Janmark and feel he has some of that. But Carpenter, Kampf, Caggiula, Nylander, Strome – they don’t do any of those things well.

  109. If I’ve missed this already, please forgive me. However, I’d like some clarification on how the waivers situation impacts the status of some of the players signed by the Blackhawks.

    For example, I’ve read where Delia and Subban will have to pass waivers, as will Pirri. On the Blackhawks’ team website, new signers like Janmark etc. are listed on the roster, while Pirri is not (he’s listed with the prospects, and not included on the NHL roster).

    What has to happen, and when, to determine the status of the availability of these players “officially”? There is all of the talk about the three goalies having a fierce competition (I think that might have been Stan’s words), so I’m assuming the waivers thing is considered a formality (?). Thanks.

  110. Sounds much better from your perspective Hawk One, great post, others too.

    Like the Zadorov trade better now, Dehaan paired with Murphy wan’t an ideal shutdown pair. Zadorov with Murphy would give a legitimate pairing there. Dehaan a top 4 talent when healthy, whether paired with Seabrook, Keith, Boqvist, Mitchell or another youngster, will help whoever. Zadorov will make them harder to play against, a good thing and if he doesn’t end up in Seattle could stay around few years. Same with the forward signings threy will make them harder to play against, plus help defensively and possession too. Help all 3 young goalies for sure. Take advantage of goalie opportunities ahead of expansion to shore up that spot until Commesso arrives if as we expect they will need to.

  111. Tab – to be fair neither Pitt or Tampa had two players like T and K making over $10 – in fact they didn’t have one over $10 IIRC when they won their Cups

    Can’t look it up right now but Crosby and Mallon together are about $17 mil against the cap and Toews and Kane are $22 mil – that’s a significant difference – the ability to add another top 6 or top 4 D man or two quality bottom 6 players

    Same for Tampa with say Stamkos and Kucherov

    Not dismissing your point that these teams won with top heavy rosters but Stan has a bigger mountain to climb with T and K at 10.5 and he never was able to do it – at least not yet

  112. TOMMY ,anything that can make STROME skate at an NHL Centerman,s level and be stronger on the puck along with being defensively responsible I would be all in.I like his brother.He would definitely look good centering Kane.

  113. Big Indian those guuys you mention have to clear waivers. There is no minors roster in off season, cap frirndly does a projected roster for caphit purposes only. Minors only officially happens when they are cut at camp and sent down. Anybody on an elc is waiver exempt. A certain number of games required before they require waivers. I think Lankinen is only one not on an elc who is exempt because he hasn’t played any Nhl games or been in minors enough seasons yet to need them.

  114. Big Indian – Delia and Subban would have to waived to go to RKF but likely not to be claimed – Pirri also has to be put on waivers to be sent to minors but maybe he would get claimed so there is that to consider

  115. Wrap usually around last day or 2 before season, teams have rosters set, fringe players usually pass through. This season however may be ececption with teams looking a little harder for those last pieces at a lowhit.

  116. Just remember Toews & Kane signed $100m contracts AFTER coming off of $30m contracts… They could of signed only $80m contracts to free up a little money to help team get a few more GOOD players…. But they don’t have to… They got their money & Hawks started “tanking” after those contracts (along with Seabrook’s) kicked in… Trying to sign “good” players for peanuts due to Cap… js

  117. Just to point out anybody claiming somebody on waivers has to keep them on Nhl roster or put them through waivers again. Team losing them has option to take them back by having first dibs if waived again and can then send them directly to minors.

  118. Saad really is a no hitter 58 games 36 hits not even one hit per game for the big guy.
    Zadorov will physically dominate 64 games 175 hits

  119. I’ve seen Ryan Strome’s name mentioned here and there and the general impression is that he a pretty good player and better than his younger brother Dylan. I’m not one who subscribes to that notion. Ryan is smaller (6’1″ versus Dylan’s 6’3″), and he is 4 years older than Dylan. Dylan’s skating weakness is well documented on Hawks’ sites but what isn’t usually mentioned is that Ryan’s skating isn’t a whole lot better, but it’s better than it was.

    Dylan is the superior offensive player and as his brother has shown, he can get better at skating. I prefer Dylan over Ryan.

  120. Every team has a big contract is correct. At the time of the bad contract or overpaid contract there was another team that would have given that amount or more. Agree that one has to look at all the circumstances surrounding trades.

    All GM’s need to consider past present and future in their jobs. Three Stanley Cups in ones tenure is impressive. All who say he was given the keys to a Ferrari are correct. Do you know what it takes to maintain a Ferrari? Not saying he is the greatest GM but not saying he is the worst either. Let it all play out and see what the next 36000 miles look on that Ferrari.

    Do you know that Mr. Wilson has 6 players making $47mil on a roster of 23. That is more than half of the cap on 6 players. 9 players making $63.6mil. He has $17.9 mil to spend on 14 players. That is going to turn into a Yugo. He has been the GM of SJ since 2003. How many Cups have been won in 17 years in SJ?

  121. Question can we expect 19 88 both to have a lower caphit next contract for 3-5 yrs or would it be around the same/given that by then salary cap is going up every yr and its 2024 not 2013 anymore. Then maybe it comes full circle when 19 88 cxaphit again and young wavers are going into bridges. By then it works well again.


  122. We need both of these kind of players. If the only way/a way to get both is to do this trade then add a ufa Tafolli/ahh or other for free ufa wise thats what I was talking about being creative/trade 20 and get something then just add a player ufa wise with Maatta caphit. Which ever way its 2 for 1 and what we need more of.

    October 16, 2020 at 5:45 pm
    Saad really is a no hitter 58 games 36 hits not even one hit per game for the big guy.
    Zadorov will physically dominate 64 games 175 hits

  123. Yea I think someone here mentioned bout 75 posts ago that 19 88 would have got 12.5 from any other team of 2/3rds the league so 10.5 was a good deal as they were worth 12.5 m almost like we thought 6 m was good for 12 when people though he could be at 7/7.5 m now we need him to be worth 6m like people were saying 20 wasnt now its 12s turn to get that heat.

  124. @Tab, a few thoughts on your response above…

    Not sure Tampa is a good comp to the Hawks situation. The Lightning didn’t even make the playoffs in 2017 so it’s not like they spent the better part of the last 5-7 years trading away their assets and draft picks while sustaining a high level of excellence. They more closely resemble where the Hawks were in 2010 a team winning a cup and now having to deal manage a tight cap. Someone else made the same or similar point in a different post I can’t find the post so I can’t correctly attribute it…

    Regarding Pittsburgh, It’s misleading to state that the difference between Pittsburgh and Chicago was that the Pens were better at replacing players with internally developed talent but completely ignore the fact that Pittsburgh actually traded for a guy to fill a hole in their roster (middle pair D) that they could not fill internally. They brought Daly in to the top four specifically because they did NOT have anyone to fill that role internally. So, the actual difference difference between Pittsburgh and Chicago after 2015 was the Pens coaches knew how to get Daly to help their team win their next two Cups filling a top four D role while our coaches did not.

    And if you think that Daly thing was a fluke, it happened again with Kempny. Same exact thing, player wins Cup doing role Hawks coaches couldn’t get him to do… If Bowman is to be blamed for offering a contract to a guy who doesn’t “earn” that contract (Seabrook argument…) shouldn’t he also get credit bringing in a guy (or even multiple guys) that ended up proving they should have been able to do what they were brought in to do but the coaches couldn’t make it work? Shouldn’t it work both ways? Maybe not, but it kind of feels like it should…

    So I don’t think either Tampa or Pittsburgh are really very good examples of a team that managed to succeed and win a cup because they were able to better develop players internally than the Hawks were. I think Pittsburgh did what the Hawks did, find different ways to bring talent in to the roster. Internally, externally and any way in between. What I actually think Pittsburgh did do better than the Hawks was not let the departure of players who were key contributors disrupt their ability to remain competitive.

    IMO, Bowman’s biggest crime was not having an exit strategy in place to account for the eventual loss of Hossa. If ever there was something that the GM should have been able to predict, it should have been that a 37-38 year old Hossa with a medical condition might not be able to finish out his contract and could the Hawks handle it if it happened sooner rather than later?

    How Bowman responded to the loss of Hossa crippled the team that still had a solid core and should still be making the playoffs. The Hawks never adequately recovered from the loss of talent of having both Panarin and Hossa exit the roster at the same time. It’s really not a surprise that disappearance from the playoffs started after this. Every move the Hawks made as a direct result of Hossa retiring made the team weaker and kept them further from the playoffs. The Panarin trade for Saad resulted in a net loss of both Hossa and Panarin with only the moderate gain of Saad. Not being able to move Hossas contract complicated roster decisions and finally when Bowman did move his contract, he used up that cap space by filling the roster with depth players instead of using his coveted cap flexibility to bring in top level players to increase the Hawks talent level.

    So yeah, maybe Bowman could have done a better job developing talent internally. I won’t argue that point. But the I can’t see how it could have contributed to the Hawks swift and sure exit from being a playoff team more than the utter bungling and incredibly incompetent reaction to the loss/retirement of Hossa and of all of the hopelessly inept attempts to fix it. Bowman did a lot of things wrong and a lot of things right in his tenure as the Hawks GM but his biggest and most spectacular failure was his failed attempt to recover from losing Hossa. Every decision stemming from that point on was a complete and unmitigated disaster and each move made the Hawks a little worse than before.

  125. Prob DET is close comparison to CHI/other then salary cap in that they won 3 in 5/6 yrs as well then didnt win again for 9/10 yrs but took awhile to get back to loaded roster again.

    So salary cap is a difference/let alone there 95 m payroll when other teams had what? Just that they won 3 in 5/6 yrs to and then took a bit to get back and then did.

    Which really shows what we did was that hard to do. Only teams with no salary cap did what we did NYI EDM DET. Where there were teams like COL going head to head BOS/LA were the COL of this decades dynasty team.

    Its a different comparison but matches in how many times won/in a short period of time 5/6 or less.

  126. Reading Avalanche blogs:
    All are praising Sakic for getting Saad at the expense of Zadarov.

    Say many, ‘Z was popular and a big hitter, but was always out of position and took many bad penalties.’ (paraphrasing.)

    Say many also, ‘Saad is a proven winner who should give us 20 goals, net front presence, and huge playoff experience.’
    (paraphrasing again)

    So from what I read, Denver is happy and Chicago is not concerning the trade.

    Long Live Supreme Being.

  127. EBONY,After watching both Strome brothers play many games my opinion is that Ryan is the better player all the way around.Dylan STROME,s poor skating was an issue with the Coyotes,also his soft play.He has had over 4 years now to improve his skating and overall play and has chosen not to for whatever reason and now he is going to literally pay the price with a Bridge Contract at best or being shipped out to his 3rd team.The Hawks need a quality #2 Line now if Toews is slotted into the 3rd Line killing penalties and winning faceoffs and Dach and Kane are placed on the top line.

  128. Sakic also said Avs were out on Hall after acquiring Saad, saying they got what they wanted with Saad, so obviously he had value and it likely would’ve grew with time. Zadorov acquisition is fine, fills a need but with Schmidt only bringing a 3rd seems probable a deal for him could have been done other ways. Zadorov is described as above average in defensive zone and below average in neutral and especially in offensive zone. That’s why unlike some, i see him more likely as gap filler until players like Vlassic and Regula for example, who bring a more rounded game are ready.

    Miroslav finding a player to fill Hossa role probably will be more like finding first one. A free agent who may be comparable in key ways who wants to win. First getting team back to the point of where that conversation can happen has to happen. No cap raise again next year, with goalie situation may likely need addressed and with Smith as only fa caphit not likely resigned that creates space. A few not big raises are pending on a few ufas and rfas, likely all that may happen. In 2 years when Dehaan, Shaw, Murphy cap hits are up and a chance to see what young players develop, maybe a power forward can be looked at, depending on how much Dach, Boqvist and others they want to resign require at that point. The next year when redt of big contracts expire, will allow development to happen and alot of cap flexibility at that point.

  129. Wonder what Rocky is up to?
    He took over a team that was a total embarrassment and built it into a powerhouse.

    Now, over the last several years, that team has been going South under the best damn GM to ever populate the planet, and he is just watching it happen.

    Wonder what he is up to?

  130. Tim W, I think it would be a better comparison to compare Ryan from 4 years ago with the current Dylan. Ryan improved his game from where he was at at Dylan’s age. The argument I’m making is Dylan is superior offensively and the skating and toughness he needs to improve upon were the same areas Ryan improved upon over the last 4 seasons. That’s not a guarantee Dylan will actualize those improvements but my post was in response to other posts holding up Ryan as a player the Hawks should target while those same posters want to run Dylan out of town. I wanted to add some context to the Ryan/Dylan comparisons.

  131. Thanks to those for the updates on the waivers issue.

    Just a comment that I think Saad will do well in Colorado’s system. He was a streaky player for the Blackhawks recently, but the Blackhawks have been a streaky team the last few years.

    I am a bit concerned about Zadarov, and will have to hold any judgement until he actually suits up and plays awhile. With the Blackhawks’ defense so poorly performing that last couple, three years, the last thing they need is a guy who takes himself out of plays by being big and aggressive. Goodness knows the team needs a physical presence, but not at the expense of exposing goalies. And if the rest of the roster doesn’t compliment his style of play in terms of forwards playing defense as well, we could look at Delia/Lankinen facing the onslaught of huge shot totals and high level chances because of guys out of place.

    It seems that forwards and centers just have to innately want to be two way players. I don’t know if a coach can force that unless he sits them accordingly for not doing that. Kind of like being at work in the corporate world where they stress “teamwork” all of the time, and try to drive it home with courses, pep talks, situational leadership seminars, etc. Some folks could not give a rat’s a$$ about being a good team member at work and are a constant pain in the a$$. They only way they participate is to be held accountable and face consequences if they don’t live up to their obligations.

    I’m not sure that by and large Colliton holds too many people accountable, and in some cases does the opposite. Now I’ve gone on record as saying I don’t care if team leaders such as Toews, Kane, Keith make it known they are not happy with Bowman et al. With that said, and hopefully not at the risk of seeming two-faced, I’m all in on management and coaching making players hold up their end when it comes to competing on the ice. That includes any and all players. If there is not a solid philosophy on how they are going to play, and if that is not adhered to, then the defensive schemes have no chance.

    And finally ………. I’m beginning to wonder if all of this talk, including from me, about a “total rebuild” is really reflective of what is going on.
    Bowman talked to Crawford about “younger players”. Toews mentioned rebuild, based apparently on what Bowman said to Crawford. Craig Nigrelli (who I do respect as a solid source of info and good talking points on this board) said that the Blackhawks were in a “total rebuild” mode. But with the acquisitions, a total rebuild, or maybe even a mild rebuild, is not what appears to be happening. It is a retooling combined with money dumping to try and bring in some guys that can compete with existing spots.

    If you are bringing in people like Zadarov, Pirri, Janmark, Walmark (sp?) etc., that’s not a rebuild.

  132. I certainly have been in the anti-Strome camp for three reasons. First, it is rare IMO to see a guy significantly improve his skating once he reaches Strome’s age. It is more likely that he will learn to play much smarter positionally. His other shortcoming is that he struggles in physical situations. This can be fixed and I would expect to see him get much better physically. Lastly, Toews and Dach are the top two centers for the next several years. To me, Strome’s game does not fit a typical 3rd line center nor do I think he would be very happy in that role. For those reasons I would look to move him although I wouldn’t be in a panic mode. He has excellent offensive skills and that should be valuable to someone.

  133. The greatest mystery certainly isn’t what is happening-they did try to extend their ability to pursue a Cup, probably too long-but that’s what the GMs’ job is-to win and have a good product. If he has done a good job since the glory years is debatable.
    Well maybe not, his overall grade is mediocre at best.

    The head scratcher is why Bowman is still the guardian of the past, present and the future?

    Many teams, good ones, would love Toews as the 2C. He has the right to be disappointed, even pissed-but leaders need to lead, on and off the ice.

  134. I think in 3 years when contracts all come off roster, they have a chance to evaluate, develop young talent by then and see what they need, with flexibility to add bigger pieces to it. Then be in contenyion again. This could be a stand back time for time being. Build up pipeline in next couple of years to maintain roster long term. Acquire some cheap support talent that will be needed. No doubt intention was to try to be as compeitive as possible until then, but the covid factor likely caused a rethink in how to approach next year or 2.

  135. Why would you even entertain new contracts to Toews & Kane when present ones expire and they’re 37 years old? Still in yesteryear drinking koolaid?
    Thank them & Move on…THEY CASHED OUT VERY WELL…
    Sports aint about the old…

  136. Honest, I think it is a rebuild just not full tank and trade everyone except 19 88 2 go about. Its looks like a few moves the next 3 yrs adds up to almost half the 20 dressed players. Then in 3 yrs time whoever isint part of the new style out and bring in the rest.

    Just thats there no need to do it all in one summer.

    October 17, 2020 at 12:40 pm
    If you are bringing in people like Zadarov, Pirri, Janmark, Walmark (sp?) etc., that’s not a rebuild.

  137. Ian, thats got to be what were doing now/these 3 yrs. Keep adding peices along the way/cant do it all in one summer anyways. Like MS said no rush just do whats better for roster. I like the idea of the brothers and if he cant be good then move both/same with 12 at that point. Got to have the right kind of players.

    We have a few yrs here to see and not rush. Just keep adding the right kind of peices along the way in time for young wave.

    Have to have a Gilbert or this guy to protect the young players and I mean protect donot just be big and not hit anymore or smear them back everytime something is boardline. Shawzer Burr Eags would smack them and then Bicks Hammer would come along a do a very clean pounding hit agasint the boards. Then they got the pic, they asked for in the first place.

    Since then we have done nothing to protect and respond in the right way. Little boxing matches do not do shit.

  138. Mo what alot of people call a rebuild is moving 19, 88 and 2 out not keeping them. They have been trying to get younger and play vets to stay competitive, don’t see any change there yet, just payroll a little cheaper. If it wasn’t for goalie situation, this team is likely more competitive and harder to play against now than it was a week ago.

  139. Ian – agree with you that this yeam should be better with the exception of goalie which is the most important position so any improvement in front of the goalie may be futile but we’ll see – I have some hope form Lankinen having watched him play so well in world championship a couple of years ago but again we’ll see

    Looking ahead just for fun here’s what the forward lines are looking like assuming Strome is re-signed


    The following 4 forwards will most likely fill in the ? and they could be slotted almost anywhere although I think Suter will at least start top 6 and DCat could end up with Toews but not Kane

    Nylander, Shaw, Suter, Janmark

    That leaves Pirri, Highmore, Kampf, Carpenter, Quennville fighting for the one spot remaining in the top 12 plus probably 2 extras – Kampf, Highmore and Carpenter have the inside track but I’m not counting Pirri out – Quennville likely starts in RKF unless he gets plucked off waivers




    I still think we could see a DeHaan trade but maybe not until closer to the end of training camp depending on how ready Kalynuk and Mitchell look

    This IMO is a better team especially if there’s improvement from most of the young players than the one that lost to Vegas except as I said and it’s a big exception for the goaltending

  140. Sure so if 19 88 2 staying which prob happens until they are 40-43 then rebuild is not the right word even if changing most of everything else in next 3 yrs and then during those yrs after to finetune.

    I had used reload for awhile I ll go bac to that as it is the right word since 19 88 and prob 2 arnt going anywhere for a long time.

  141. I don’t know why so many folks think High more or Kampf or Carpenter are the answers for 4th line forwards. Doesn’t anyone like the looks of Hagel or Kurashev or Barratt? Were looking for something new, after all. Supposedly. Let’s give these guys a frigging try! Were going to go with three unproven goalies, so why the hell not. And since when is P Suter such a shoe in for the 2nd line? Is he really that good? Somebody help me understand all this nonsense, please.

  142. Hagel could be good and I like Kurachev and Barratt a lot. Those guys are players like Shaw was.

    Are they ready yet not for 82 games/could be ready for 2nd 40 games maybe. Kurachev is a3rd line player hes to good at OFF. Barratt can play lots of spots like Shaw did.

    So when they are in fulltime these others wont be on team anymore eventually the better players will earn the spots.

    I have read here from other that Suter is top 6/more like 2nd line material.

  143. Suter expected to make lineup, was what was said about him when he signed. Actually could see Colliton use him to start on a matchup line like Kubalik last year on what was a fairly successful early on with Saad and Kampf. Maybe have a Suter, Wallmark, Janmark line to start year and have a couple of offensive lines with your skilled guys. Could even see putting Dach and Strome together as a lefty/righty faceoff combo to help them out there as they work to improve in that area. Kampf and Carpenter were a big part of a much improved pk last year and did a pretty good number on Mcdavid in playoffs with Highmore. Those 3 adds mentioned for matchup line with Dach gives alot more options there though and could see movement and new face or 2 there, plus Shaw will play somewhere too. Chalupa and Entwistle another couple of options there. Smith a question mark could be on ltir, could be in Rfd.

  144. For all of you that wanted Crow gone…
    Lets see how this season plays out.
    Any side bets on Hawks making it to SC finals?
    Oh Really?
    Lets just see how many goals Hawks need to score to offset the ones that go in against us..
    No Crow, but still have Keith the toad.
    Gunna be laff time… lmao

  145. maybe keith & seabrook can resign and play until they’re in their late 40’s or early 50’s…

  146. I think Kalykuk,Cam Morrison,Hagel,and Pirri all make this team.Nylander,Kamph,Highmore,and Boqvist will be without a chair when the music stops after training camp.Just a feeling.I have been wrong before.

  147. Billy, I think most people would agree with you regarding the Hawks not making the playoffs in 2021, but there seems to be a disconnect between people who see the necessity of rebuilding/retooling the team and those who think the highest priority should be to make the playoffs. Rebuilding the team is a multi-year process that will probably result in not making the playoffs next season and very likely one or two seasons more. Pull the bandaid off quickly or slowly, but either way it has to come off. The rebuild is necessary and overdue … it comes with some pain.

  148. Others Yagr Chara Thorton Lindstrom played to 40-43 I expect no less from Dunks and maybe Kane. Toews played hard min like Seabs by style and position/role those guys prob 40. Seabs maybe less because of the new league speed thing that wasnt around 10 yrs ago.

  149. ER, thats why its fine if were 12 seed or 8 seed or other on each yr here. Make it a yr and not the other while were reloading.

    We did get robbed of a top 10 draft pick and that is garbage because of the Bettman ‘worlds’ tournament format. Should have just took the 8top 8 seeds and tuff shit/none of this stinking root beer wildcardplayin nonsense.

    We were the F ing 12 seed and we pick 17th. Total failure by league.

    Now we prob make playoffs 1 or 2 of next 3 yrs but on the yrs we donot these 3 yrs we need the top 5 skill draft player to load the young wave good enough to have a chance for that young wave we want/need to get 19 88 the 4th Cup.

  150. Tim, at some point in these 3 yrs its a rebuild in that the roster will only have 19 88 2 and a few others on it from 2017 2018 yrs when were in 2023.

    Along the way these 3 yrs its a reload. Getting every young player in to see who is going to be part of it longterm wise. We should have a deep young fast relentless fore back ck ing team with size in a few yrs.

  151. Mo how do you figure mostly everything needs replaced. The long term goalie has been drafted and yes likely need to acquire a no.1 already in Nhl until he is ready to take over. The defense should have at least 5 of 6 who play for next few years already there, just needs to sort itself out for another year or 2. Quite possibly top 9 that 6 or 7 are already on the roster, but 2 or 3 moving in and out is just natural turnover, Reichel coming maybe 1 or 2 from Rfd make impact there and possible fa or trade adds. 4th line always changing little from year to year anyways. Any drafting from now on will be to maintain long term what is started now with high end adds over next couple of years that fill out roster, along with development and 19 and 88 still play important roles. Even if they a draft a top defenseman next year, likely if a void there a veteran acquired to bridge the gap until he is ready like Comesso in the longer term.

  152. Was a rebuild needed? Could Bowman not have approached his veterans and asked them to restructure their contracts for the good of the team? So, if that avenue was not explored, who is at fault? They could have kept Saad. They could sign a LW, like Duclair. They could resign Strome and Koekkoek. But…nope. None of that happened. SB is an idiot. Really no argument there. The veteran core? Did they not know that their contracts are the very reason the Blackhawks cannot bring in true talent or keep the talent they have? Losing Saad…you can downplay it all you want, he was a very talented cog. Much like Sharp, he was productive on all 3 lines and at any forward position…although never being used as a centerman, I will acquiesce on that point. The Blackhawks have very good centermen. Strome’s weakness is in the faceoff. But, he is a very good playmaker. Defensively, Koekkoek was showing improvement. He was gaining confidence. He’s a big body that can skate. I thought, with the trade of Maata, that the kids would be getting their shot at the NHL. Nope. SB has too many undersized kids that are not NHL ready. No one? Disappointing to say the least. The possibility of Duclair, I will keep on harping on this. He knew the Blackhawks system. The Blackhawks could have had 8 & 19, 77 & 20, 17 & 10(Duclair). RW’s 88 & 12. I don’t like Nylander. He has, supposedly, great talent. I see a .10 cent head. Where is his hockey IQ? All year he was good for being totally inconsistent. This team has major issues. GM, HC, and players who are making big money that won’t give an inch. So…whose fault is it? All of them. A stupid GM and self absorbed player leadership. A good coach, like Quenneville would have been a fantastic mediator. BUT…SB screwed that up. Now? Hawk Fans…this is what we have. Instead of a team with growing potential and a blend of older, prime, and young…we have mediocrity and below. Feels like the old days…sadly.

  153. No matter how we dissect it with multiple opinions, the bottom line is:

    The GM signed Kane and Toews at 10 million a year.

    The GM signed Seabrook at 7 million a year.

    The GM signed Zack Smith at over 3 million a year

    The GM traded Saad 3 times and got fleeced every time.

    The GM traded Jokiharu for Nylander.

    The GM fired Q.

    The GM hired Colliton.

    Etc etc.

    The current state of the Chicago Blackhawks is the result of one man behind the curtain.

    Inescapable fact.

  154. Edman Nhl doesn’t allow restructured contracts, once they are signed that’s it. So doing that was not an option.

  155. Ian, I only mean that for who we had on 23man a couple yrs ago. So 19 88 2 in 3 yrs from now 7 20 most wont be here. 12 17 nylander sikura 5 44 question marks for longterm.

    Not talking about any young player just starting or any prospects/draft picks.

    I mean players like 6 15 65 44 20 7 22 64 other those guys.

  156. Mo just pointing out big difference between moving on from 88 and 19 or trying to move with them. Without Toews even if role reduced and Kane top 9 forward core gets pretty thin, then likely drafting and waiting for Commesso, top Dman and more forwards for 5 or 6 years before adding high end veterans to compliment roster. Quite a difference, more room for error on the long term road but no guarantees meat of the roster reaches the ceilings counted on or has the needed entangibles to get it done without them.

  157. Here’s why I’ve come around to thinking it will be at least 2 or 3 years before the Hawks are back to being a legitimate Cup contending team – I’m not too high on most of the current crop of prospects, therefore we have to acquire and develop players not currently in the Hawks system. Specifically forwards we hope can play effective NHL level top-9. Kurashev, Barratt, Hagel, Entwhistle, and other guys who have faded from view for one reason or another like Wise, Nordgren, Soderlund and the couple Russian guys I can’t recall their names right now. I would be very surprised if any of those guys develop into long range top-9 staples in the Hawks lineup. Of that group I have the most hope for Kurashev but I couldn’t go more than 50-50 for his chances to be a productive top-9 player 3-5 years from now. Many of them have NHL level skill but not enough of the total package to do it. I have more belief that Strome and Nylander can improve enough to be legit top-9 players than any of the aforementioned.

    Having said that, the Hawks don’t need more that one or two of that bunch to develop into NHL caliber players to be added to Dach, DCat, Kubalik, and hopefully Suter and Reichel.

    I’m more optimistic about the cadre of young d-men to become ready steady NHL caliber d-men than the forwards. Boqvist and Carlsson have made the first step in that process and I feel pretty confident that Mitchell will pan out to be at least a 3/4 guy. Kalynuk and Beaudin are question marks but they don’t have obvious warts to dampen my optimism for them. The other guys like Regula, Vlassic and others I would put in the less likely category but similar to the forwards, the Hawks don’t need more than 2 or 3 to make it.

    The bottom line is we don’t have enough of the sure thing players in our system that will become the key pieces of the rebuilt team. The best case scenario is to suck for a year or two and get difference makers in the draft to become those final pieces.

  158. In 21 years 13 teams have won the Stanley Cup. Pitt and Hawks 3 each. Hawks all under SB watch. Van Buf Win/Az 0 going on 50 yrs. NYR Mont Tor 26,27,53yrs original 6 respectfully.

    EDM with all their #1 picks 30 yrs.
    Colum Nash Minn 20yrs
    SJ 29 Ott 28 Fla 27 Atl/Win 23
    Cal 31 NYI 37 Phil 45

    I can wait another 5 to 10 yrs to watch my fifth and hopefully be 4-1 in Stanley Cup victories.

  159. Eb,

    This organization had seen it’s last Cup, as the organization is constructed now.

    Until changes are made not on the ice, but upstairs, this organization is light years from a Stanley Cup. Not 2-3.

    You are old enough to live thru the Bob Pulford era Hawks.

    The young fans who tuned in around 2007 have no effing clue what Pulford did to the organization.

    We do.

    And the similarities, then vs now are not good.

    17th Century philosopher Hegel was right:
    ‘What we learn from history is we do not learn from history’.

  160. Calling for a rebuild seems silly to me. Rebuilds often don’t happen on purpose. Most often rebuilds occur on accident, usually because of player who play below expectations or dissappoint. The only team of recent that actively was in a major rebuild was Ottawa and that was because the team was for sale as I recall.

    Might I add this years draft could be one of the most unpredictable due to less hickey being played. This could mean instead of the usual three to four years to become an nhl regular we could be looking at five to six years. You all really want to kick the can that far down the road? Seriously?

    Scouting will not be able to get around as much though I’m shocked as it stands players themselves havent long invested in videographers to focus in on their play if they are that serious. For someone who plans to one day make millions on shocked they dont invest the fifty an hour or whatever for a videographer. Moreover I wouldn’t be shocked if some scouts were bs ing ther job. I happen to sit next to a familiar scout years back at a wolves game. He didnt watch the whole game. I think he left before the third. Maybe…maybe he moved to a different area. Perhaps he was sick of our groups drunken antics. Thiugh he left at least some of his scouting materials and the ground which is how I knew he was a scout. Left his name tag too. His name you ask? Stan Bowman, detroit red wings scout.

    The only upside to the oddball season is maybe maybe players hit the gym and work on building muscle. See boqvist.

    Seriously though how much of scouting is based on talking to team coaches and staff? One would think these coaches and staff will hype their program and players to help build themselves up. Can you picture a coach saying no one on his team has a shot at the nhl ? I can not.

    Bottomline anyone calling for trading of players for draft picks, especially right now, is….to put it nicely out of their mind as you can not possibly be looking at the big picture.

    The team seems to be retooled and not being blown up rebuilt. Crawford going is really the only big change. I find it funny, dodnr people online slander Crawford online with the rehab rumor? Havent seen that lately. Personally I do not believe it but I’ve had my close sources tell me true… again noting even with them telling me I still do not believe it. I sometimes think people are told lies just to see what leaks and I believe that to be the case here. Perhaps Crawford wanted a no movement clause again? Maybe that was the real sticking point. I’ll point out Crow played really well in the playoffs…..but keep in mind he was indeed playing for a contract. Just something to think about. Also compact season…the backups will see action across the league.

    Duclair I believe was here with Q not xolliton and did he fit in with the system here anyway? No. He also was on a terrible team this past year. Even a blind squirrel finds a nit once and a while. Pass.
    Speaking of systems isnt Keith playing a new system? Hes not the only one on the team. Is it working? Hard to say if you listen to rumor. Didn’t the players take over? Lots going on behind the scenes it seems. Tough to really know. What I do know is keith is making two.6 million a year which makes him one of the best per dollar defenseman in the league. Yes he looks bad once and a while every defenseman does. The forwards who done back check dont exactly help.

    Strome brother, seeking inflated contract after playing with league MVP nominee, maybe you’ve heard of him, Panarin. Pass. Maybe last year.

    Keep in mind the Blackhawks had about 20 million on Injured reserve last year. That’s basically 25% of the team in terms of salary cap. Any team in that situation is going to have problems. Seabrook and Shaw deserve the opportunity to return, heck they’re getting paid for it. You think debrincat and dehaan will be protected from Seattle if they have another slump or Injured season? I do not. Might be best to shop them now. Although I would go after prospects for a rebuild and not draft picks. Dont get me wrong debrincat actually tries out there he just makes too much. Same for dehaan

    For those of you calling for a rebuild think of how unpredictable this years draft will be and by all means look at draft history. Players take years….years to develop into nhl players and often do not do so on their first nhl team, usually the second or third team. Also take a look since 2010….the nimber of players who become nhl players after the second round is very dissappointing. Basically you need to rebuild with first and second round picks, you can consider third round plus massive gambles….and a good rebuild seems to happen around top ten picks. Which the Blackhawks were robbed of this year…Crawford should not have been played in the playoffs unless a new deal was signed given the silly playoff format.

  161. PP, you’re entitled to your opinion (of course) and I’m entitled to mine which thinks your pronouncement that the Hawks are doomed is a tad overreaction. There’s no guarantees we will or won’t win more Cups anymore than there’s evidence we would have won more Cups if we had had a different GM.

    And, I never liked Hegel. He was far too wordy … and … well … I had a hard time keeping all those enlightenment brainiacs straight. :)

  162. I like Perimeter Players comment. He’s so right. Almost every move that idiot Stan Bowman has made just stinks. He continues to make the team worse than the day before. Until he’s gone, we have some bad days to look forward to.

  163. Goalies take years to develop and odds are comeszzo is years away to begin with. I wouldn’t even waist my breath talking about him. I bet hes five years away from being an nhl regular. Five years. Seriously dont even waist your time thinking about him. The best thing for me about him is his team has two other draftees as teammates. Other than that whatever goalies come out of nowhere sometimes. See billington 26 year old cup winner drafted eight years Earlier. and the dallas goalie who I cant spell journey man played everywhere. What about lehner up until three years ago? Lehner was drafted over ten years ago. Holtny had a great cup run but then let go. Lunqvist never won a cup. Luongo….never won a cup. Miller. ..never won a cup. Quick seven years removed from draft wins cup. Look my point is talking about commesszo as of hes on the roster is crazy hes likely years away. Who knows if they find someone between here and there. Not that I wish it but he could, knock on wood, get in a car accident. I wouldn’t worry about him.

    Other teams were high on Lankinen, left unprotected for the Seattle draft I’ll bet you right now Seattle takes Lankinnen.
    Look stan tried. He offered Crawford a decent deal. He went after Murray. He want after the coyotes goalies(I’m guessing with salary retained), he tried three different goalies aside from Crawford two seasons ago, he tried to sign lehner. The team now has three goalies signed for less than three million(I’m not sure about bonuses…I seem to never know about the bonuses). Rockford also signed a goalie I believe last week….from bowman’s college Notre dame…shocker. The net us open for anyone who wants to take it! Still a couple free agents if they want to bring in a veteran….

    Maybe Toews comments were meant more to be taken as “hey somebody come play here, we want to win”.

  164. I don’t think we see any more action other than a Strome signing from Stan until possibly the end of training camp

    I have to believe that if training camp shows none of the 3 goalies are ready for the #1 or even 1B Stan will make a move for a veteran – there will likely be some available although my fingers are crossed that Lankinen is ready to take it on

    I think they’ll also wait to see about Seabrook’s ability to play and at what level of play and if it’s good enough for top 6 it could mean DeHaan gets moved

    If none of the goalies are panning out it could be DeHaan for a goalie

    If Seabs can’t play top 6 he’ll end up as the 7th and DeHaan likely stays – if Stan then needs a goalie it might be waiver wire or trade a draft pick to get a journeyman goalie or someone like Craig Anderson may still be available as a UFA

    For now we’re on Strome watch and that’s about it

  165. This. Is why I wanted out 12 seed top 9 pick this draft and another top 5 skill draft player in next 3 drafts. Then were talking.

    We can add good ufa players/or maybe trade to finetune when were close.

    October 18, 2020 at 1:00 pm
    The bottom line is we don’t have enough of the sure thing players in our system that will become the key pieces of the rebuilt team. The best case scenario is to suck for a year or two and get difference makers in the draft to become those final pieces.

  166. wrap

    your thoughts on their thoughts on seabs/de haan are probably accurate. my thought….i don’t care if seabs ends up on ltir. if i have a chance to move de haan’s cap hit for a bag of pucks he is out the door and it’s “next man up” from rockford or a free agent on a minimum one year deal. helping to win games this year should be the last consideration of any transaction.

    my further thoughts…..every player on this team who does not project to being a valuable player on the 2023-2024 roster should be in play to be traded for picks, prospects, cap relief or any combination of those. “full rebuild” mindset is the quickest path to the hawks returning to being a competitive team. no sacred cows.

    rock bottom isn’t the year of a team’s worst record. it is the season that results in “full rebuild” being the decision as the proper path to success. hopefully that was last season.

  167. I know I’m wasting keystrokes debating Stan with those who have their opinions set in stone but I’ll just say that I don’t necessarily think that he is a good or even average GM, my main beef with the Stan haters take on it is their frenzied hatred that he is the worst GM ever and personally responsible for the ruination of the could-a-been Hawks dynasty. That’s nonsense, no matter how many cherry picked moves they list as proof positive their opinion is right. The only thing that proves is that they don’t want an honest debate where both sides are presented – which, again, is their right to do so, but kinda pointless to engage in for those with an opposing view.

  168. Said this years ago. Seabs in Seattle. He will be the Seattle Captain. It is only what the sweetener will be for that to happen. My Kraken jersey/sweater will be number 7.

  169. Ebony I appreciate your point of you. But here is mine. If the team is going in a new direction , or total rebuild , or rebuild on the fly , why is Stan the only one left standing (McD , Q , some core players gone) . We can’t only blame McD for the failures of this team the last 5 yrs. I am sure Stan has some responsibility. If the team is going in a new direction ( as been stated) , it would be nice to have a new GM and coach to lead the team . I don’t believe Stan is up for the task. His record the last 5 yrs speaks for it. New perspective from a new face would be beneficial IMO

  170. @JR:

    I’m with you–
    I feel like if Seabs is indeed 100% post surgeries and doesn’t feel like he’s getting a fair chance at a roster spot, (I’m looking at you, Wet Noodle Jeremy)–
    he will waive his NMC and make himself available for Seattle. He’d be an incredible C for a new franchise, IMHO.
    Seattle is not that far from his home in Kelowna, BC –he grew up in BC too; his brother Keith (who played for Rockford for a bit) lives in Vancouver.

  171. Eb
    You play devil’s advocate well.
    It is respected.

    But you cannot deny the bullet points of bad moves by the GM, which are numerous.
    Very numerous in fact.

    Is he the sole reason the team is resembling the Pulford era teams of the 1980-90’s?.


    But 80-90%?


    He is the General Mgr, responsible for the product on the ice.

    Those teams of the 89-90s won zero Cups under Pulford and the organization now is resembling the organization then.

    That is my point.

  172. Bobby, you make a good point that a clean sweep of the old guard would make sense, and I’ve said this before – I wouldn’t shed a tear if Stan were shown the door. The bug up my butt has always been what I consider the almost mob-like overreaction. I think the job he’s done isn’t as bad as portrayed on hockey blogs so I find my self being an apologist when I don’t necessarily want to but I end up feeling sympathetic because he gets what I consider an unfair shake.

  173. Wrap doubt Bowman signs a veteran goaltender, had that option and passed already. I expect a younger goalie who can be no. 1 for few years with some control. Doesn’t give much indication when he makes a move so never know for sure, could be sooner or later.

    Honest I said Commesso be in 5 to 6 year range on different occassions, have no idea what his chances on making it are, but they took him there for a reason and were concerned he’d be gone. Just hope they got it right and watch his development.

  174. Perimeter Player accurate again.

    For reasons the fan base can only speculate, ownership has entrusted Bowman w/ full force and authority akin to Pulford’s reign. This can and will lead to only one conclusion:. the demise of the Hawks as we know them.

    If ownership wants to be cheap and save money like they used to when Pulford was in charge, so be it. Just tell the fans like the Rangers did, be honest about it. Get rid of Bowman as well, and we can all live w a full teardown. As long as it doesn’t include Bowman.

    In addition to his numerous transactional transgressions, Bowman is the one who sold ownership on getting rid of Q on a dime (no pun) for numbskull (and I’m being kind) Colliton. This bought him time. Bowman is the one who sold ownership on getting rid of Mcdonough for Dollar Bill’s grandson or to be determined. This bought him more time.

    Simply stated, not only is Bowman not very good at his job the last five years, but he’s a f ing snake and a mf’ er as well as a person. He would sell out his mother as well if it came down to it.

    If his plan all along was to go young, why not play the young goalies in the bubble, lose the first series, draft the Russian goalie, and let Crawford know when he was sick in July don’t worry about rushing back out of shape from the virus? Then he strings him along for six weeks, then it’s f you Crawford, here are your bags packed bye.

    Bowman crossed the line bw “it’s just business” and f ing w people — this time it was one very respected player, and the trickle down effect will be felt for years. As long as Bowman is in charge. Karma is a killer.

    Perimeter Player is correct.

  175. How about we play out 20 21. Get picks for our 1 year pick ups. Then have 5 veterans and 1 semi veteran and 6 new waves for 21 22.

    Kubalik Toews Nugent-Hopkins
    Anthanasiou Dach Kane
    Suter Morrison Chalupa
    Hagel Barrett Kurachev

  176. Say the main reason for not losing to Oilers is players don’t tank they want to win. Some things you don’t in playoffs is undermine your players chances and play your backup goalie or there would really be a mutiny in the dressing room. Everybody would want out then and be like Ottawa and be scrambling for credobility so somebody will sign there. Some here wanting them to lose likely wouldn’t have been happy when they drafted Askarov anyways.

  177. For the Bowman thing hey some people like Q some like Bowman some like Donough some like other spots. Those guys are gone and Bowman is 100% in charge now and its his roster to get good again. If were not good in the next 3 yrs/for where we all here want and know we need to be then sure. He gets this opportunity now for the reload.

    I have nothing against the coach/s and not mad but want to see a system that works. I know we donot have enough horses/yet to play any system but I didnt understand what they were doing on DEF.

    I am good with these couple yrs loading up the young wave. By then though we have to have the right kind of players coaches/team system that works/gm whoever it is then that doing very good.

  178. I agree w you Ian. I was very happy when Crawford showed up out of his bed and played and made it exciting for a couple weeks. As a relevant aside, he proved he was invaluable. At least for the next year or two.

    That’s not the point. The point is the way Bowman handles a 17 year employee of the organization. And how it effects the other four long standing employees, and their influence on the young employees, most of the team. The extension of Bowman is the coach, that’s his guy. The core four employees don’t like that guy, and if there was any question on their position re Bowman, it’s been cemented after the Crawford scenario.

    So call it a mutiny, call it what you want.
    It’s gonna happen. A horrendous game coach, w a horrendous defensive “system”, and the reliable last line of defense – the backbone of the team per the captain of the team – gone w the wind.

    This is not how you re build a team. It’s the owners’ money, so be it.

  179. If Corey Crawford was so valuable why was he not traded to bring us some much needed assets instead of letting him walk away for nothing?

    Hawks fans on this site love their favourite players so much they truly believe these former stars would be front line players on other NHL teams.
    Let’s get serious if the 4 core would wave their no trade contracts.

    Would any teams give anything of value in return for these front line Blackhawks?

    I have heard on here that Keith is still a top 4 defencemen….If so I would think we would get a really nice return. What would we get for Keith?

    Healthy Seabrook as possible Seattle captain? Dose this mean we don’t need to give up a top prospect as a sweetener in the trade?

    Toews the leader of any team… What would he bring back in trade for the Hawks?

    Kane the most valuable asset on the team… What could we get for Kane?

    This is just a question…. What value would these guys have on the trade market?
    Not a question of would these guys wave their no trade or would Chicago ever trade these guys.

  180. JR ROMAN,I definitely like your lineup you just put out.Would love to see Hagel,Kurashev,Morrison,Chalupa,and Suter make this team.Toss in Janmark and Wallmark and I think you have a very interesting team.Kalykuk ,Mitchell,Carllson,Zadorov,Keith,and Dehaan/Murphy on Defense.Move Murphy or Dehaan and Strome then find a solid Goalie.Its a beginning.

  181. STAPE,Exactly right.If Saad was so valuable,why did the Hawks have to eat a MILLION dollars of his contract to move him and why couldn’t we get a high draft pick thrown in instead of an AHL Defenseman?

  182. @Stape re: core waive

    My take on the core waving their NMCs without a sweetner is this:
    They have intangibles– cough, 4 deep Cup runs and 3 Cups, cough–that for some teams could be invaluable.
    The teams that have coaches that know how to use those guys in the right places at the right time (example: limiting 2 and 7s minutes to where they are fresh & useful) could make it enticing enough for them to leave without a sweetner, if the powers that be make it miserable enough for them waive.
    I don’t know about most of you here, but
    its apparent to me that Wet Noodle Jeremy has no f*cking clue how to manage TOI/lines/etc for a team of aging vets and newcomers. And I don’t dislike Jeremy just because he replaced Q. It was Q’s time to go. I dislike Jeremy because he’s in over his head with this group/at this level.

    I think a team with the right coach could be a dream for 2, 7 and whomever else to waive, IF they feel like they are being useful.

  183. Stape that’s a good question on what their value would be. Seabrook too many questions right now, until you see this year first if he can once again become a viable option on the blueline for a couple years, Seattle may like the other qualities he brings to a young core. On the other side he may not be able to play at Nhl level anymore and be a caphit with ltir value or remain a aging blueliner who wants to keep playing.

    I think Keith has more value in staying, and likely he wants to stay close to his son. With nobody ready to assume his role yet, he can still give those big minutes night in and out against the leagues top forwards, regardles if he has diminishing skills and whatever struggles he has. Putting young developing player not ready yet into that situation night after night probably does more harm than good. 19 and 88 would certainly draw interest but doubt they go anywhere. Obviously look at trades this off season, with flat cap not getting alot return right now, probably why not alot of big names moving in trades likely. Saad on expiring deal at tdl with only 25% of his caphit to cover at that point, would have value you’d think, but look at last years tdl, no expiring contract brought higher than a 2nd rounder last year, so waiting could be a risk too. Maybe why Crawford wasn’t moved too, teams weren’t offering alot for expiring deals at tdl.

  184. re: Stape’s question about moving 2-7-19-88

    First, in the current market there is really no market for Toews or Kane. Both of them has a NMC, meaning they control where they could be dealt IF the Hawks wanted to pursue that. And with the salary cap staying flat for the next couple years, the number of teams in position to get either of them closer to the Cup than Chicago that have the cap space to add a $10.5M cap hit AND the assets that it would require for the Blackhawks to even consider moving either of them doesn’t exist. This is common sense + CapFriendly.

    Second, re: Seabrook – he, too, has a NMC. And is coming off three (3) significant surgeries. And has a terrible, awful cap hit (which, again, is not his fault). Nobody is going to take his cap hit back w/out a significant sweetener AND the Hawks eating part of the cap hit, and even then it would be IF he’s healthy enough to skate. If he’s a no-go, the Hawks could sit him on LTIR and call it a day. Seattle only makes sense because it’s closer to home for him.

    Third, re: Keith – has a NMC. He’s still a top-4 defensemen in the NHL. He can still eat minutes. And the actual cash outlay over the rest of his contract is far easier to stomach for a team than the cap hit. But, again, he has a NMC. And he’s loyal to his teammates; whether or not he’s still loyal to the organization isn’t a lock. If the Blackhawks truly wanted to burn this thing to the ground and start over, he would be the first one to go in my opinion because he’s the easiest to move because of the financial factors. But he would still control the destination.

  185. Thought maybe the Blackhawks were going to announce new President, supposedly have an announcement coming.

  186. Stef, I have nothing against the coaches and that is why i donot like about that as well.

    To me unless were getting a top 5 draft pick I wouldnt trade 19 88. Better to keep these guys and get a top 5 draft pick by having a 12 seed kind of record.

    I guess 3 or 4 top 5 draft picks for our record and 19 88 would be better then 1 or 2.

    Top 5 draft pick or nothing.

  187. Any side bets here on Toews & Kane playing until they are 43 years old… Thats the NHL norm right? lmao

  188. Dynasty players except last one on list.

    Keith 42
    Toews 40
    Kane 43

    Lindstrom 42
    Messier 43
    Lemieus 40

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