Marcus Kruger Traded To Arizona
It isn’t often that a trade goes down during the playoffs, but a familiar face was traded on Thursday.
The Carolina Hurricanes traded former Blackhawks center Marcus Kruger and their third round pick in the upcoming 2018 NHL Draft to Arizona for forward Jordan Martinook and Arizona’s fourth round selection in the 2018 NHL Draft. Carolina is also retaining 10 percent of Kruger’s salary.
Kruger was put on waivers last season by Carolina and no one claimed him.
He is still useful as a defensive, possession driving 4th center, who wins a great deal of his faceoffs.
But that’s how bad his contract is. You just don’t pay guys like that over $3 million a year.
Stan overpaid him but then did well to move him and his salary
I am just relieved Stan didn’t take him back.
We did move him at a good time so we didn’t pay the last two years of that contract, but moving him for nothing but “future considerations” from Vegas, which was basically the Hawks keeping TVR unprotected so Vegas could select him, a serviceable bottom pair defenseman, and giving them Kruger for free, is not what I would call doing well. You subtract two assets for nothing.
To compound this, the Hawks waited until they paid a $2 million bonus to Kruger before making the deal as part of Vegas’ demands. To rub salt in the wound, Vegas turned right around and flipped TVR to Carolina with a 7th round pick for a 2nd round pick.
I get a lot of disagreement on kruger but I think he was a BIG part of the two cups he helped win
in juniors he was an assist machine but was asked to play a shut down role here and did it extremely well
he also refused to consider offers elsewhere and trusted hawks to care for him after he helped them lever over the peak of their cap hell which is part of why he got the 3M$ contract a year later: hawks and loyalty have rarely met in my life but I thought that was appropriate and probably says a lot about rocky vs past regimes
and if he is still motivated and not injured, I would take him back in chi as 4th line center and penalty killer today for the right price which agreed, the market has shown is well less than 3M$ getting him back inexpensively could be a win for all
http://committedindians.com/marcus-kruger-traded-arizona/
jaekel doesn’t hit the bull’ eye much but he did here on kruger a couple years ago:
ask Q next time you see him: when a cup final game is on the line and the hawks are protecting a lead to win the cup: Q, second most winning coach in nhl history, trusts kruger: watch the tapes of 2013 and 2015
Exploding The Kruger Myth(s)
September 2, 2016, 10:08 AM ET [159 Comments]
John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks Blogger • RSS • Archive • CONTACT
These are the blogs I love to write.
Why? Yeah, I get to put a dumb argument to bed. But also, I get to illustrate how much context matters versus raw (and incomplete) data—taken out of context.
The “Myths” are these:
1) “Kruger is strictly a fourth line center.”
2) “As such, Kruger is overpaid.”
3) “Kruger can’t score—and never will.”
Let’s start with the first.
Yeah, if you look at the lineup sheet, Kruger typically centers the fourth line down the sheet vertically. But that’s where the “fourth line” logic ends.
Typically, fourth line centers aren’t sent out by hall of fame coaches to stop opponents’ top lines in big playoff games. Kruger is. And he’s done the job well—especially in the 2013 Cup Finals and the 2015 WCF, where he drove Corey Perry, Ryan Getzlaf and Ryan Kesler nuts.
Fourth lines don’t typically maintain offensive zone possession over 1:00, often allowing a complete line and defense change while the puck remains alive in the zone. Kruger’s line— especially in those Cup seasons—has done that.
The truth is, in those seasons, the Blackhawks really had two “third” lines, the kind of luxury only a deep Cup-winning team has. Because Kruger’s profile and style is really more that of a classic shutdown center, not a 4th line energy/checking center, like, say, Vern Fiddler or Nate Thompson.
On to Myth 2.
So when you consider that Kruger really is, and probably will be going forward, your third line, shutdown center—and then compare his salary with those of the guys who do that role well (which he does) then he is really not overpaid.
Look at how much Dave Bolland makes. Oy.
Darren Helm. Jori Lehtera. Brooks Laich. All make as much or more than Kruger.
Look at the total package of Kruger: a guy who has been a consistent 55% guy in the dot the last few years. One of the league’s top penalty killing centers. And a guy who can anchor a very effective possession line—especially considering the high percentage of defensive zone starts he has. And a guy who does that job and never complains—when he might have more skill than that would indicate.
Which leads us to Myth 3.
I’m not going to even try to make an argument that Kruger is some kind of undiscovered, dynamic offensive wunderkind. Because that would be, uhhhh, false.
That said, when you examine the arc of his career, and especially look at what he can (and can’t do) with the puck, then a more complex picture emerges.
In parts of three seasons in the Swedish Elietseren (a pro league comparable to the AHL in terms of competition), between the ages of 18 and 20, Kruger put up 89 points in 106 games, more specifically, 19 goals and 70 assists.
Some might be surprised at that, especially those who repeat the mantra—“he only had 3 points last year.” I would just insert into this debate at this point that—in those years—Kruger was playing in more of an offensive role.
Granted that production and role was in Europe, not the NHL.
So let’s fast forward to Kruger’s rookie season in the NHL, 2011-12. Kruger put up 26 points in 71 games. Nothing to write home about, but also not what would lead you to say he has “no offensively ability.” 26 points, 71 games, as a 20 year old rookie in his first season in North America. Meh, ok, probably safe to say he could do better than that in subsequent seasons.
But a Funny Thing Happened On The Way to 2013.
Kruger’s responsibilities, and the offensive abilities of his linemates shifted dramatically.
The previous season, he had played quite a bit with Marian Hossa as the Hawks’ de facto 2nd line center. Then, from 2012-13 on, he played almost exclusively a speciality defensive/penalty killing role with the likes of Brandon Bollig, Andrew Desjardins, Brandon Mashinter and, yes, Andrew Shaw at times—the only linemate you can say he had with any measurable scoring ability. And for the last four seasons—that line has done its job. Which was not scoring a lot of goals.
But let’s not forget also, how in 2013 and 2015 especially, Kruger’s line maintained that ungodly offensive zone possession time—mostly with Desjardins and Shaw on his wings.
Imagine for a moment if those wings were Artemi Panarin on the left and Marian Hossa on the right. How much of that extended offensive zone time would get translated into points? Answer: a lot.
Kruger’s numbers—when he’s been in more of an offensive role in Sweden and for one season in North America—not to mention what you see on tape—shows a guy who has pretty good hockey sense and ability to pass the puck. His shot can’t break a pane of glass, but he can recognize and dish the puck.
Another Henrik Sedin? Uhhh, no. But also not the offensive black hole that the typical torch and pitchform narrative has painted him as.
Just a very versatile, smart, pound for pound tough hockey player who does whatever job is asked of him—and is largely undervalued and misunderstood.
All for now.
No argument, Kruger is as tough as they come, a very smart hockey player too. When he covers the boards on the wing in the defensive zone, and a bigger defenseman is on his back trying to keep the puck in, he pretty much ALWAYS gets the puck out, it’s amazing.
How he was deployed by Q reflects all of this. And he played a huge role in those Cups, Duncan Keith said he does things that win hockey games.
But he doesn’t score, and I was following him in Sweden, where he was a 1st and 2nd line center, and putting up some numbers. But he has had cameo’s in that role, and getting 2nd line minutes with guys like Hossa, and putting up 20 something points does not cut it as an offensive player.
So you have to look at his value for what he brings to the table, not for what he might bring but has never done. This is the reason Arizona wanted him, but Carolina retained some salary in the deal. He makes too much. And yes, it is the result of the sweetheart $1.6 million deal he signed the year prior to help the Hawks out.
How much are we paying Duclair next season? I’d ship him back to Arizona for a discounted Kruger, sure.
Marcus Kruger belongs as one of the most over rated players of the Hawks cup championship rosters. Marcus was a replacement level player who couldn’t do a lick past his own blue line. To this day I’m still shocked he scored vs the Ducks in the Western final. His accomplishments are appreciated however his horrible contract and future consideration deals are not. Good for him for squeezing every dime out of an NHL career. The Yotes will likely be his last NHL stop.
The above sees value purely in goals and assists. To make a statement that Krugs was the most over rated player on the Cup teams is ludicrous. He was and is rated for being an extremely reliable and effective role player that always did the less noticeable tasks extremely well. Terrific face off performer, much better than average defender, terrific penalty killer. Pound for pound tough kid that never backed down from the boards, corners or net front.
When the Hawks had a roster of higher end offensive producers, Kruger filled a valuable role very effectively.
I wish the disinterested Artem Anisimov had half the heart Kruger had for the dot and the overall game.
Who’s got the rings?
Great, thorough analysis GFF.
GO HOGS!
1961 hilarious
Kruger was good in 2013 with Frolic and Bolland.
John Madden was a 4th line center who could score 15-20 goals a season. Losing Kruger was no big deal except for two things: 1) Bowman overpaid Kruger especially after that wrist injury and scoring 4 goals in 2 years????. 2) We had Danault, a faster hard working 4th line center who had some offensive skills as well but BOWMAN made a trade with Montreal for 2 washed out 4th line players???
I am still in disbelief that OSTERLE has a 2 year deal? And Rutta signed? Trade them along with Murphy who can’t skate either. Sign Jack Johnson and Calvin De Haan and hopefull JOKU makes the team next year. Then again, if he can’t beat out Ville POKKA then I have my doubts. Ian Mitchell is too small and will not sign with the HAWKS. He will wait and sign in DALLAS where he can be small but protected by Johns and the rest. If you watch who is on D in San Jose, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Winnipeg, Tampa and Vegas, and if Bowman is watching too, you realize we are wayyyyyyyyyy behind in the prospect pool. Watching the ICEHOGS play with CAST OFFS or free agent smurfs is a JOKE! We are the priorities for this organization. GRAHAM KNOTT, IACOPELLI, FORTIN, etc……
Drafting 8 is huge for BOWMAN and KELLEY but I really do not think they will make the right choice. Quinn Hughes is too small. I wish Doug Wilson can pick for us because the 3 amigos GAUTHIER BOWMAN KELLEY are embarassing!
Did Nick Schmaltz refuse TEAM USA?
BOWMAN could have drafted 6’7″ Finnish Dman Eemeli Rasanen (CHL) in the 2nd Round instead of Mitchell.
Some of my final thoughts on Kruger as a Hawks were the Hawks continually forcing him into the 2C position due to injury and watching him fail despite skating with Kane or Hossa. It’s not just about goals and assists as someone had suggested but in a hard cap league and in the Hawks cap crunch it was beyond foolish to pay him what they paid him for the skills he brought to the table. At least he was better them Sammy Pahlsson.
Jonathan Toews is the new (extremely over-paid) version of Marcus Kruger in Chicago.
Skeptic– I will 2nd that JT comment…. $3M for 3rd C -checker…. better than $10M
2nd line C????
I ask the question knowing 16 was worth less than 8 g’s -17 pts
and 19 is 20g’s , 55 pts
When you add in length of deals… and knowing production will continue to drop
@ SKEPTIC
That’s not really fair Toews while currently overpaid was arguably one of the top all-around players in the game over a 7 yr stretch. Kruger has always been a player with a limited skill set.
@SSHM
When you are making 10.5 mil and you are the captain of a (formerly) very successful team, you should expect some criticism.
He got paid for what he did over that “7 yr stretch”, but in this world, its all about “What have you done for me lately?” And lately, he has not been very good and is certainly not living up to that 10.5 mil price tag.
If Bowman didn’t fall in love with what he did over that stretch and had tried to get the local discount of say 8 mil per year for him and for Kane, the Hawks would still be (potentially) a relevant team and he may not have had to make as many drastic (dumb) knee-jerk moves.
Would love to have Kruger back on the 4th line. For $1.5 million.
Kane and Toews deserved the contracts they signed. They could’ve gotten more in free agency and were would have that left the hawks.
How can anyone bitch about the Ian Mitchell pick the kid had a great freshman year.
@MRFENN92
Kruger back on the 4th line? No, please no… That experiment is over.
Would rather see some young center with skill and potential.
And for that price, we certainly can find better options.
“Jonathan Toews is the new (extremely over-paid) version of Marcus Kruger in Chicago.”
This is the dumbest take in the history of the internet.
@ skeptic
Do you seriously think that the reason 19 and 88 didn’t sign for 8 mil a year is because SB didn’t try?
They were both pending UFAs and they have an agent who negotiated on their behalf. If 8 mil/year were even suggested by the Hawks that agent would have laughed his ass off.
I agree with others that 19 and 88 both got what were fair contracts for pending UFAs who probably would have gotten more on the open market
This narrative that it’s SB’s fault for not tightening the screws on 19 and 88 on their last contracts and somehow forcing them to take less than their fair value is a fairy tale narrative, it’s not the reality of the pro sports economics.
@ SKEPTIC
Completely understand your take on him.
Kampf did fine as 4C for $925k. He is part of our future. Kruger belongs to our past.
Kampf will be a good 4th liner. Toews has shed blood and tears for this team like Keith and Seabrook. They deserve to stay ublike BOWMAN who deserves to be fired. For ten years our GM has mismanaged our pay roll and prospects, that is the bottom line. The bad trades speak for themselves. I guess we need to move on but I wish we had a different amateur and pro scouting staff. No one on the beat in Chicafgo asks Bowman why has he not drafted an NHL goalie? An NHL Dman? The kings drafted Martin Jones, Anaheim Gibson, Pens Murray…the list is endless. Anyway, rootiung for BIG BUFF, Denis Savard’s favourite player after Kane!
It would be fair to suggest Rocky Wirtz hire some real hockey people to surround BOWMAN or at least make sure he does not screw things up this coming draft. Let’s look at teams like San Jose, Pens, LA, Preds, Anaheim, Capitals, and Tampa Bay and try to bring someone with talent as a scout or assistant GM from their staff to Chicago. We have lost Dudley, Tallon, Chevaldayoff, Lapointe, Bergevin, and probably a few more as well as coaches like Jamie Kopton, Torchetti, Kitchen, Bill Peters, Mike Sullivan!!! These are quality hockey people who are all gone. Not sure who is advising Bowman to make dumb trades, overpay 4th liners, or players Anisimov etc… Scotty??? Yes, probably his dad.
Add a head strong hockey man like DEAN LOMBARDI in the mix to make sure Bowman does not screw up anymore. Need someone with stature! Stan Bowman is an accountant, a bad accountant and a bad GM.
Maxim Shalunov still not in the NHL with the HAWKS? We could us e his size and speed.
Hogs won Game 1 vs. Manitoba…
Hayden , “the Edje ” and Sikura with some nice goals!!! 4-2 win
Edje- with 3 g’s in 5 PO games… showing some great hands around the net…
Don’t know if he is “classic AHL’er… or he is slowly picking up the system/smaller ice in USA… but the kid has some impressive hands… the Highlite goal last nite was effortless…
Based on his few games in NHL/Skating… just don’t see him getting that kind of room in NHL to showcase those filthy mitts— unless he plays with Kane and ???
to basically give him ROOM arounf goal… Kinda like AA- profiting from 72/88 together. The Edje- would need to really improve on D side Center – though to replace AA
Re: USA World Team …
Heard
Hughes- D 2018 draft… got a lot of Ice time… and looked good
Redwing coach- like Hughes… so it is probably safe to say…
Zadina, Dahlin, Tkachuk, Russian, and now Hughes are all gone by #8/Hawks pick…
also- hearing Boqvist- might be 2nd best D…
Most likely- those SIX are taken…
Leaving Dobson , Bouchard- D guys- Hearing Dobson- may have skating issues?
Wahlstrom, Kotkaniemi, Veleno- F guys (and others)
If I am SB– I am going FORWARD (D guys– imo– always harder and longer to forecast- when ready)…
and- KOTKANIEMI- has played in and been very successful versus Men in Pro league… has solid size… great patience for age… good at the Dot!!!
OK – with Wahlstrom too… but wildcard with him– is College bound- so he can play UFA game- so be careful
Much of this Toews over paid ,Kruger over paid ,Seabrook over paid ,Kane ????over paid , theme revolves around our very special ,all ours Mr .Bowman. Stan has over the course of the last say,.,,.4 years single handily put our Hawks in a situation which , as we are seeing now is very hard to climb out of .When was the last time Stanley Bowman did something right ??? It`s escaping me right now .Stans ass should have been shown to the curb after we were swept by the Preds a couple years back .
Kruger fits Stan`s M.O to a tee ,it goes like this ,.,.,1 . draft a player 2 .develop a player to fit a roll 3.sign said under achieving player to an over the top contract .4 struggle to get rid of said player 5.throw in a an up and coming rookie with great potential to dump said players strangle hold contract .
Keep up the great work Stan .
Good point Mikita — I forgot about Shalunov. If we could get him over now that he’s turned into something that could be a big help.
Shalunov has a KHL contract for 2 more years although it’s possible if Shalunov really wanted to get out of it he might be able to
I read somewhere he still wants to come to the Hawks but it seemed his idea of when that would be is later rather then sooner – probably in 2 years when his current deal is done
Of course Wall agreed with the jackoff that put Toews & Kruger in the same category. Just flat out ignorant. But to be expected from a guy that’s wanted just about every player on this team traded over the last 5 years at one point or another.
Mox-Re: “Toews and Kruger in the same category”…
if you are speaking of Contracts that outlast/over pay the player in the – all to near future of the contract…. YES- same category… along with Bickell and Seabrook’s contract for disappointing returns in the NEAR term of the contract…
Of course- most contracts- outlast the player’s production – I GET IT!!!
You just don’t expect the player’s production- to drop- that much in 1st 25% of the contract term!!! When it does…. Ya got problems!!!
Toews- is still a very, very good player… and his “production” is still pretty good…
But- the “Eye-test” says- bigger drop in play… than the stats alone…
If you are in the camp -that 19 wins as many board battles as he used to…
or as many 50/50 puck races
or does not fall down any more than he did 5 years ago…
or he fumbles and muffs as many passes as he used to…
Than- let’s just say- we don’t see the game the same way.
Yes- Toews- is still good at hockey… just NOT as good as he used to be…
and it’s 3 years of decline… not just a “down year”
Wall whats the deal with these uncalled for continual attacks on players who paid tbe price so you could have great team. You really need to grow up, if it wasn’t for the atmosphere created by making this organization a place players want to play and not just waiting for free agency door to get out by treating them right, there would not have been 3 cups and winning tradition the last 10 years.
Wonder if Bowman is going to pursue KHL free agent center Jan Kovar. He is 28 and says he wants to play in NHL, put up very good offensive numbers in 5 seasons there and is strong defensively and good on faceoffs i guess. Supposed to be good battler, listed at 5’11” and 216 lbs. and goes to the slot, plus decent shot.
Interesting to see the Bolts heading to conference finals being with Stamkos line not producing and being led by 160lb center Braden Point with his 2 big 180 lb wingers Johnson and Palat.
Regarding Wall’s “uncalled for ” attacks…19 is still on the team. So how is critiquing his play, especially at 10 mil a year, an uncalled for attack? It’s just an opinion about a player. Isn’t that what fan forums are all about? And why must wall “grow up” for simply stating an observation…esprcially one that a lot of hockey fans agree with?
Bomba we a hear it continually is the childish part. Stating opinions is fine but but trashing somebody every post is not an opinion.
Congrats to the knights. Awesome team.
Ian, he can indeed be repetetive but I think he’s also right about a lot of things. In general i like hearing his thoughts. I’d rather hear a wide range of opinions than fewer, so people quashing others voice bugs me. Anyway, GO HAWKS!
What are you doing yourself. I never said i didn’t like his opinions so get your facts straight. Just not continually trashing someone.
Ian i wasn’t commenting on you. I was just trying to make the point that I think it’s better if everyone can state their ideas freely versus people attempting to silence peoples ideas . If you’re sick of his thoughts, don’t read his posts.
Ian- I respect your opinions/thoughts
I can’t fault a player for taking/making a crap ton of money/contract… that is their right… and most were “Underpaid” at some point in their careers …
wts- I can criticize their play (to the cap hit or not)… as a fan…
BUT-imo- my rants- are really critical of the GM’s management of the contracts and NOT really the player’s fault for … SB- is really the blame/and should be…
SB- gets paid to run/GM contracts as a business… managing $$$/risks/assets…
perfect example… Darvish/Cubs… I can’t blame Yu for taking on contract… I CAN say he’s been bad (especially considering pay- my right as fan)… But real blame goes to Cub’s FO – for signing- and thus far- Missing on this Deal!!!
it is still early on Yu…. But looks like The Cubs- signed the wrong guy!!!
to be absolutely, perfectly clear:
The Blackhawks did not overpay Toews/Kane. Both would have received bigger deals on the open market, and the Blackhawks wouldn’t have replaced them in any way, shape or form. Keeping them was essential to any attempt at sustaining success as an organization.
I have very little defense for the deal that Seabrook was given (money or years). He likely could have made that money elsewhere, and the Hawks would have struggled to replace him immediately, but it’s better to let others make the mistake sometimes.
I have also been critical of Bowman signing back Sharp & bringing in Oesterle, Franson, Bouma & Wingels instead of letting the kids learn on the job to start last season. Nobody here is giving Bowman a free pass on mistakes.
My only problem with Stan is the lack of draft success. Looking back on his picks over the last several years and it’s hard to identify many impact/depth role players. Understand it is harder at the end of the 1st round continually but that’s what effective organizations do. Not going to trash his record but we need some impact players and applaud him for looking in every corner. Let’s see what happens this off season. Stan is on the clock IMO.
@ Tab,
At the time Stan did overpay for Toews and Kane. Stan decided to not only make both of them the highest players in the game. but exceed both Sid, & Ovie’s deals by over million dollars AV. You could make an argument that he could have made both the highest without spending an additional million or million five. Its also telling that 3 years later NO team has exceeded those deals until bigger boob Peter Peter Chiarelli decided to draft pay McDavid 15 million dollars a season. He could have saved that 1.2 million for the rest of his roster and still had McDavid as the highest paid player. Hard to believe Rocky is paying both 19 & 88 13.8 million REAL dollars last year for a last-place finish.
The agents alot of times are the ones that being highest paid have the most at stake. As it is important to attract future clients. The athletes hire them to represent them and they come back with their best deal and reccommend they sign or don’t. The rest of the dressing is looking at how the superstars are treated and the message it sends them. If you low ball your stars then what do the rest expect.
Thats part of why Toews and Kane got their deals and Mcdavid and Draisatil did in Edmonton and Matthews and Marner will in Toronto.
Yes Seabrooks was a bit over the top but be honest at this point if his play looked more Buff like than bust like there is no issue. Unfortunately his level of play declined,
I never had a big problem wuth Krugers deal, his role was needed and he still hasn’t been fully replaced. Yes Kampf was a nice pick up and had a promising start, but he didn’t replace Kruger in every sense. Kruger went against the other teams top lines and shut them down nicely, that role is almost exclusively done by Toews and i believe has led to his drop in production as it coincides with Krugers wrist injury and increased defensive responsibilities that haven’t been fully replaced since.
Another SB blunder…
TT- now with 3g’s , 5 a’s in 2 World cup games!!! ouch!!!
Ironically- TT didn’t fit the “Hawk’s Cycle game” …. but looks like Hawks are slowly changing that Cycle game to – quicker /faster/ rush/tips/traffic game…
@ Ian: Good point. My buddy’s brother-in-law was National League MVP some years ago and signed a huge (at that time) contract. Agent kept at him saying he could get more, more. The guy just blew him off. He already had more money than he could spend in multiple lifetimes and was a down to earth guy — my buddy said the money grubbing got annoying for him. He just wanted to play ball and catch some fish in the off season.
I thought it would have been nice if 19/88 had signed for 9 or 9.5. We had a good thing going and the cap was clearly tight. That said, it is a free market under which they are entitled to make as much as they can, but there was clearly no home town discount (unlike say Hammer’s last deal although he took the offer sheet before that — maybe some contrition on his part, who knows). At the time the assumption was that the cap would go up a lot faster, so in effect we ended up paying top dollar at the top of the market.
Jordyhawk also its unpopular here but had Tallon not signed Hossa to such a long deal there would some more relief too but that didn’t happen either, ltir isn’t free space you are limited as this season showed.
Yes! We haven’t complained about Teravainen in a couple hours. Let’s bring him back up!
SSHM: When were Ovi & Sid’s deals signed that Kane & Toews jumped? Is the league supposed to sit and wait for a decade to move the bar higher? Because I’ve got a great series of lockout content waiting to publish if your love for salaries not increasing is a real thing…
Sorry, but the Blackhawks did not overpay 19 or 88. They would have received more than $10.5M on the open market – and deserved it. We can all wish they had taken a hometown discount but it’s not up to us.
Cincod1 says “My only problem with Stan is the lack of draft success. Looking back on his picks over the last several years and it’s hard to identify many impact/depth role players.”
2016 2nd round – Alex DeBrincat
2014 1st round – Nick Schmaltz
2014 6th round – Dylan Sikura
2013 1st round – Ryan Hartman
2013 3rd round – John Hayden
2013 4th round – Tyler Motte
2012 1st round – Teuvo Teravainen
2012 6th round – Vinnie Hinostroza
Since 2011, the highest pick the Blackhawks have had was 18th overall (Teuvo).
But yeah, keep telling me about Bowman’s inability to find players in the draft.
If we take a step back for a moment on the Hossa comment Ian made, let’s all remember that the Blackhawks at that point had made the playoffs once in a decade and were still an organization many/most agents wanted nothing to do with. The only “top tier free agents” Tallon had been able to sign at that point were Huet & Campbell, and he grossly overpaid both of them in dollars & years. Hossa was at the top of his game and had played in consecutive Cup Finals. Getting him to come to Chicago at that point was a reach they needed to make and did. There’s a reason the back seasons are $1M per and, if they hadn’t put in new rules re: cap penalties for such deals, he likely would have retired by now and the LTIR situation wouldn’t be as much of a concern.
I don’t feel for a moment 88 and 19 were overpayed but does anyone really believe that a 9.5m vs 10.5m cap hit would make this conservation any different right now considering when the cap issues 1st arose and all the players who have come and gone.
@ Ian
Yes, the Hawks would have had at least another 16 million dollars available for other players over the life of their deals. As for the Hossa deal. That was by far the best possible signing the Hawks have had during free agency. Did the Hawks overpaid YES but that’s exactly what was necessary to get Hossa to sign. 3 cups later this team is going no where and is just dead money now. They over paid for Hoss just like the Campbell deal. Luring an established player from another Org isn’t easy. Money and yrs are necessary. Watch Tarvarse break the bank this offseason. I’m guessing San Jose or New Jersey Devils.
Toews and Kane were homegrown players. The Hawks shouldn’t have had to overpay for their own players. Sure its only a million or million five depending on how you look at it but x2 and that’s 2-3 million dollars extra per year. Now look at that over 8 yrs.
I get the frustration over TT and Panarin-if the Hawks hadn’t had 3 super stars come together at the same time and some great complimentary players they would possibly be a better or even really good team right now-
(and they would have drafted higher and had a stud like McAvoy or/and Marner and been able to keep say a Buff etc) Now they would have had players like Panarin, Schmaltz, DCat etc. and be in the legitimate playoff conversation. Add, say one of the stars-say Kane or Toews and you’re right their. BUT they wouldn’t have three Cups.
Success breeds success, until it doesn’t especially in a cap world. They had three great stars, and a star like Hossa, a Sharp and a really good player in Seabrook and Crow-and it worked-3 Cups—organizations would kill for that, the fans would too.
You can’t have both! It’s a new start.
2m a year the last 3 years would it have signed Saad or kept Sharp, no. Would it pay Bickells salary or TTs now, no. Would it pay Panarin, Darling or Shaws salary, no. Basically it would have no impact on current roster and the conversation would still saying it was too muvh if we were lucky enough they were still here. Going forward there appears to be room available to sign younger guys and either trade or ltir Hossa for 3 more years and use that for other purposes as best he can. So not a big impact there either it wouldn’t appear.
If the Jets can knock off Nashville, Hawks will have pick # 27 in addition to #8.
Conceivably the Hawks could then get two players they have on their draft board in the top 25, because there are always a few off-the-radar picks teams in the first round.
I wonder if Nashville will wind up regretting the Hartman deal. He took another ill-advised penalty the other night that wound up in a Winnipeg goal seconds later. Hmmm.
Being a homegrown player has nothing to do with what the player commands come contract time. That’s insane. The contracts are fine for those two. They aren’t the issue. 19 still has tread on his tires, unlike 7. So I’m not writing him off yet. Contracts that hurt this team are that of 7, 20, and 50 to an extent. I would also throw 15’s contract in there. Sure, he scored and will go to the front of the net, but he’s not worth what he’s getting paid to be as a 2c. Absolutely atrocious in the faceoff dot. 20 could bounce back and is very young still. 50 worries me with his age and the severity of his issues. 7 is a warrior and I love what he has done for this team, but if you can move him, you have to.
There wont be a better PK in the league then 19/81/16/4/2 in the salary cap era. 4th line centers do not score 10 or more goals.
Shut down center other teams top line.
What Pittsburgh record against 19 and 16, like 2-10.
Even Cindy was afraid to play head to head against Tazer for like the first 5 yrs or something. What does that tell you, he didn’t want to get embarrassed like he did in the outdoor game.
couldn’t help but notice how Trotz is using Kempny in WSH.
Granted he’s getting decent minutes playing with Carlson throughout the majority of the game but I noticed in Gm. 5 Trotz didn’t let him on the ice in the last 5-6 minutes using others with Carlson
Same tonight in Gm. 6 for the last 5-6 minutes and unless I missed it I don’t think he played at all in OT
He’s been useful for WSH but Trotz is not trusting him in crucial D situations not like he would a real top 4 D man – he’s a 5-6 D man playing up in the line-up partly because he’s a LD which they need and it gives WSH 3 decent pairs
Ian, prob the two best teams in last 25 yrs (not counting 95m payrolls in the mid 90s) the LA Kings and the Chicago Blackhawks dynasty team. The top line for each team went head to head and didn’t score much at all. Tazer line outscored LAs by the way. Point is when you have a dynasty kind of team and a COL of the 90s kind of team the top lines hold each other/limit to little pts.
When you have a top 4 of 2/7/4/51 or 27 you always play them like that. Not even 8 was aloud on ice during those kind of times. That’s good smart management and why I do not understand anyone’s problem with Q. When we have the roster theres no one as good as Q.
Now we can enjoy hockey again because a team that deserves to win will win this yr. The last two yrs TB and NAS should have won, they played better.
Not sure if WIN can beat TB they donot have the experience that NAS has. It will be good hockey again, which I havnt seen in 2 yrs.
Go Jets.
Lmao only brought this to all your attention in Jan & dead line. Needed to dump big contracts at deadline. Roughly 15 mil
Well WIN had a really good yr ()so did BOS) and now their top 3 team. Still no teams are close to NAS and TB roster wise/expereicne.
We need to load up again, right way. Theres no point in just getting better. Look at PIT and others they had no chance to play, when it comes to NAS or TB this yr and going forward.
We need to load up right way, because only WIN can really compete with NAS and TB.
Excuse me but Knights are!!!!!! a complete team that handle both Tampa & Nashville. They are a complete 4 line team with a proven cup goalie. And they are extremely fast. They got it all. And just wiped out kings & sharks. Stay tuned for they are going to be a force in conf Finals. Resting up to play who ever
The Knights also took advantage of a cap system that no other expansion team in history had as an ally when building a team from scratch. It used to be all 35+ journeymen and AHL+ prospects. Now it’s 30 goal scorers & Fleury in net.
Bettmans was criticized for putting struggling franchises in non hockey markets. Vegas in a non hockey market, boom one of the healthiest franchises as a contender out the gate, coincidence.
They assembled a good team but when you get teams who drafted and developed young stars still under rfa protection put in a spot where they have to let them go for nothing or trade the future in draft picks so they won’t its not really a fair playing field. Take Florida who gave them Reilly so they pick Marchessault 2/3 of their top line. Vegas did a great job with the opportunity given them but it was an unprecedented opportunity that Bettman fueled for them.
Plus Vegas is a one hit wonder. Unless every ufa stays.
I have no respect for a expansion team that doesn’t pay their dues and be a bad teams for yrs, then get good. Like SJ they did it the right way, then were one of the best teams for 10 yrs and didn’t win. SJ deserved to win one Cup Vegas doesn’t.
Regarding Vegas – the Knights had Florida GM Dale Tallon to help build their team by giving them Smith and Marchessault for free – couldn’t he have traded Marchessault and Smith somewhere else if he wanted to and gotten something back? (other than a 4th rounder which he got from Vegas for Smith)
Not just Tallon but a lot of NHL GMs seemed to be asleep at the wheel and had McPhee pick their pockets
Good for Vegas – they are standard bearers for the new speedy NHL
NHL helped VEGAS for sure. They all have high draft picks on the team playing! Gm’s helped their buddy McPhee as well. Do not be surprised for some favours this draft by VEGAS to those who gave a helping hand.
Watching Osterle get out of the way to avoid contact and cough up the puck at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP is scary! I hope he is traded or in ROCKFORD or in the SWISS league next season.
Is that German player BOWMAN signed playing in this tournament?
Mikita – you’re spot on. Oesterle is a solid AHL D-man, maybe a 7-8 depth NHL D-man at best. To think he was given the full, entire run (playing heavy top 4 minutes) of more than half a season (and his play regressed tremendously), and in direct contrast, Kempny was taking orders in the press box until he was traded most of the time. Amazing.
Hereinafter, Q & Bowman need to meet face-to-face RE: every player, and Bowman needs to ask Q directly, “do you like this player (fill in the blank), Yes or No Q?” If Q is non-committal, that means No as well. It’s that simple.
As Tab set forth above somewhere, and as stated prior hereto by me and others, Bowman’s problem is not identifying and securing young players. It’s his handling of NHL players (bad trades, bad signings, bad contracts) that has and remains an issue with him.
a few thoughts…
first, to Morrison having no respect for an expansion franchise not being terrible – I laughed out loud. That’s hilarious.
second, to Wraparound’s comment re: Tallon – remember the shit show that Florida was over the last couple years. They took the GM role away from Tallon, lost a damn good coach (also to Vegas) and then two good players. I’m not sure Bob Pulford could have screwed things up as much as Florida did over the last 36 months. I’m not giving Tallon a complete pass, but he was handcuffed by the ownership & previous (temp) “leadership”
Tab nothing wrong with an expansion team being good but in this instance the league seems to be hurting the weaker teams in order to showcase a new team. The old saying is you are only as strong as the weakest link. In this case it seems like the league is trying to strengthen the chain by making weaker links weaker.
I do my best.
Tab, yuou are right, the opwnership first bumped Tallon out toi make room for ROWE.
Tallon is a master of trades and pro scouting. He traded for Riley Smith and he brought Marschessault to Florida. Once Rowe, they gave up on Gallant and Tallon.
Iceman, I agree, Bowman is horrible with trades and contracts. I think he has no vision and relies on dinosaurs like Pierre Gauthier and his Daddy.
And, maybe some of his first round picks were solid picks but to think of all the goalies that have been drafted by other teams since the HAWKS drafted Crawford, passed by Bowman, is irresponsible. And this also happened with Dmen? Since the HAMMER, Stephen Johns who he traded away recklessly. And all the tiny forwards drafted like Vinny, Hartman and Anthony Louis is not a good report card for his amateur scout leader Mark Kelley.
I am a little nervous about this year’s #8 pick in terms of trusting this management’s eye for talent. Let’s hope for the best.
Bowman needs to explain to us why Graham Knott a 2nd Rounder cannot crack lineup in Rockford ahead of Bouma??? And the same for a 19year old he drafted in the 3rd round I believe, Matt Iacopelli is also in the press box will Pelletier is on the ice?
I wish Rocky would hire a real heavy hitter as an assistant GM (Dean Lombardi, DUDLEY type-too late, or someone from a winning organziation) to put pressure on Stan but to also examine the NHL teams in the playoffs in 2018 that are having success, same success since 2015!
I’m not going to blame Vegas and their well-run plan to succeed early for shitty franchises still not getting it. It isn’t GMGM’s fault the Islanders didn’t trade Tavares, Ottawa didn’t trade Karlsson and the Blues are still in St. Louis. Having a fresh start afforded them the opportunity to find smart – and available – people to make critical decisions and they were able to find terrific people to be their GM & first head coach.
The NHL has the same issue the NBA and NFL have – teams that aren’t “this close” to winning it all are more than happy to spend a couple years in the crapper to get that one special athlete to change the future of the organization. The difference between the NBA & NHL/NFL is that, in hockey and football, one player doesn’t change the entire thing (see McDavid, Connor – EDM).
There is no appropriate response for whatever Mikita just wrote. I need those 30 seconds of my life back.
Kudos to Vegas for whatever they do, and have done. Leading up to and during the expansion draft it was clear they had a real mindset for how they wanted to do things. They executed their available picks and subsequent trades well. Then they went out on the ice and brought it in spades every freaking night.
They may not be the same team next year. But they’ve made a believer out of me watching them play during the regular season and thus far in the playoffs. They can play the speed game or the physical game, or both. They match up well with pretty much anyone. They’re a helluva team.
@ Tab
I appreciate the shit show that has been the Florida Panthers and was wondering before I posted about Tallon if he was indeed responsible for Marchessault and Smith going to Vegas or if it were at least somewhat a mess not of his making
Here’s the article I found where he explains why he protected D men like Mark Pysyk and Alex Petrovic over Marchessault and Smith and how he decided to go with a 4-4-1 protection list
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/florida-panthers/fl-sp-panthers-tallon-moves-20170622-story.html
I think in this case Dale has to wear it
I love Tallon, but based upon WrapAround’s research, the verdict is clear: Tallon guilty of GM malpractice. Those two guys are 2/3 of Vegas’ top line. Skilled, competitive, aggressive forwards that can skate as well. Tallon might end up hitting himself on the head w/ his golf clubs if he hasn’t gone that route already.
I appreciate the shit show that is the Chicago Blackhawks Wraparound . Stan has our team fucked .
Good for expansion tram dong well. Now its time for them to go to bed. Its NAS and TB yr. Those two teams deserved to win the Cup the last two yrs and are the very best top two teams this yr. Nothing against Vegas but they was rigged a little too much.
Terrible.
Vegas is in great shape to keep it going for a while. Cap space a plenty with Clarkson on indefinite IR and Grovobski on IR now but coming off the books after this year. That is 10.25mm. 4.25mm of that is going to Marchassult leaving VGK about 10mm in space. Add to that, 2019: 6 picks in the first 3 rounds and in 2020: 5 picks in the first 3 rounds.
MikeR they said they are going after Karlsson in offseason. They gave up a 1st, 2nd and 3rd picks for Tatar, wonder how many of those picks they would give up for Karlsson.
Vegas with Karlsson and all those high picks for the next two years is a scary thought.
They have the cap room to keep any UFAs they have moving forward.
I saw one of their games with the Hawks and they blew our doors off, they were so lightning fast it seemed like there were six of them on the ice at all times, they seem to attach in such a coordinated fashion.
Unfortunately our team is a long long way away from being that good.
Craig Custanence reported that he hears Chicago will be very active in the UFA market. I wonder what that will entail.
Tab, easy on the 30 second comments, comment on what is being said and not my late night spelling!!! Haha!
Enjoy the ride and examine the facts. Everyone in the NHL loves to trade with STAN BOWMAN because he is brutal! And if you are signing a German player and he is not at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, how good can he be for the ECHL? Who is scouting these guys? That kid could not score in the CHL in double figures for 2 years! Like when BOWMAN sold Hawks fans of the NHL pedigree of BAUN from COLGATE who scored 13 goals his last season and signed him as a free agent college player. WHY? These are all signs of laziness and incompetence.
While winning CUPs, you are still drafting the 30th best player in the draft which happened only 3 times. The real failure is 2nd and 3rd round picks which make up the depth of a Championship team. And the disconnect with COACH Q who I believe has coached terribly the last 3 years is concerning. Panarin, Kane and Crawford saved his butt for 2 years.
HEREISMIKE the Bkackhawks have 67.5m right now for 16 players counting Hossa for next season, and bonus overage could be 1.5m not sure may be a little lower but say 69m. Cap going 78-82, conservative figure is 79m so thats in 10m range. If they move 15 and 5 say thats 8.4m, giving 18.4m but need to make sure there is enough for 8 and 12 extentions among others so big long term deals could be tricky. Probably 3 or 4 rfas resigned but not bank breakers this off season. Also if Hossa ltir is preseason this year could give another 5.275m space. But with off season cap rule counting it again, anything there likely has to come of books again next summer, so a one year deal may be only benefit of ltir. But he has lots of options for free agency.
@ halktalk
funny ; )
I don’t mind people having their opinion but I do mind when I read (not necessarily from you) that SB is useless and the Hawks only won 3 cups because of the genius that is Dale Tallon
Tallon did some good things and some bad things – I think his abilities are generally over inflated and more accurately reflected in the record of the Panthers since he took over – with the Hawks he also had Dudley as well as Bowman working under him (and maybe Chevldayoff – not sure about that)
Florida has been an up and coming for what seems like forever but have made the playoffs once (?) in Tallon’s tenure – not really the record of a genius
I keep hearing the Hawks are players for Karlsson. Tab, thoughts?
Wraparound, I think if you can be precise in what has Bowman done since he has been the GM (Excluding the fact that the 3 Cups do belong to TALLON), then these discussions can be deeper.
GM criteria is drafts, trades, free agent signings and salaries.
I have nothing against the signings of KEITH, SEABROOK, KANE or TEOWS…except maybe knock off a million or two from TOEWS AND KANE but these players drafted by TALLON deserve something even though MALKIN and CROSBY are better players.
Trades? Who was better BOWMAN or TALLON for the Hawks? TALLON wins
with Ladd, Sharp, Versteeg. Havlat, Boyton, Kopecky, Leddy, & Johnsson
Bowman losses with Flieshman, Wiese, Daley, Pokka, Saad, Dano, Garbut,
Sekac, Tropp, Forsling, Anisimov, Abbott, Carrick, Murphy, Rundblad, Scuderi, Erhoff, Olesz, Regin, Erixon, Kostka,
HONOURABLE MENTION FOR HANDZUS, ODUYA, FROLIC, AND VERMETTE.
Free agent signings? TALLON wins (HOSSA, MADDEN, NIEMI, Campbell, SOPEL)
BOWMAN losses (BOUMA, FRANSON, OSTERLE, BAUN, TOOTOO, ………whatever… Honourable mention to Panarin and Richards!
Sorry, I give up…
Anyway, I agree, let’s hope he trades ANISIMOV and MURPPY but I still do not trust him in trades when you have people like Gauthier and Maciver….or Kelley around.
cheers
re: Mox – most national insiders have said the league expects the Hawks to be players for big free agents. Some have linked the Hawks to John Tavares, who intrigues me as much as Karlsson. Either way, the Hawks would be looking at adding another $9M+ cap hit to their payroll that many here have already complained (hourly) is top heavy. If the Hawks went out and landed another expensive superstar, someone would likely need to leave in addition to Anisimov.
Ma-mikita-why don’t you just cut and paste to save time? You’ve basically said the same thing 100 times-WE GET IT-Stan bad, Dale good. Kelley and scouts really suck
I wouldn’t read to much into Vegas blowing our doors off, only because after Crow got hurt (when we were playing good at 17-11) lots of teams beat us and we didn’t play as good as we are and we sucked at times. No need to mention bounces or sch.
We will be back and adding ufa. 91 bayyyybay.
@Makita21
I don’t argue that DT deserves a lot of credit for the 2010 cup but 3 cups as you stated do not belong to Tallon – 2 belong to Bowman.
Let’s look at the 2013 cup winning roster
Tallon acquired Toews, Kane, Sharp, Kruger and Hammer (I don’t include Hossa because even though DT was GM when he signed multiple reports support the notion that Tallon wanted to sign Havlat instead of Hossa and was over ruled)
Bowman acquired – Handzuz, Saad, Mayers, Stalberg, Carcillo, Bollig, Shaw, Frolik, Emery, Leddy (not Tallon as you stated), Smith, Oduya, Brookbank and Roszival
5 players were acquired before Tallon – Bolland, Bickell, Keith, Seabrook and Crawford
Let’s look at the 2015 cup winning roster
Tallon acquired – Toews, Kane, Sharp, Kruger and Hammer (again not including Hossa)
Bowman acquired – Oduya, Richards, Vermette, Versteeg, Carcillo, Darling, Desjardins, Nordstrom, Cumiskey, Roszival, Saad, Shaw, TT, TVR, Timonen, Runblad
Player acquired before Tallon – Bickell, Crawford, Keith, Seabrook
regarding drafting – while DT picked Toews and Kane at 3rd and 1st (some would say no brainers) he also picked Skill at 7th and Beach at 11th
Bowman until this year has never picked higher than 18th and still got TT, Saad, Debrincat, Shaw, Danault, Schmaltz and Hartman
Since you’re cherry picking trades don’t forget DT traded for Anton Babchuk, Sammy Pahlsson, Sergei Smasonov, Jim Dowd, Andy Hilbert, Danny Richmond and Michael Barinka to name a few.
Bowman has traded for Leddy, Vermette, Frolik, Oduya, Handzus and Panik to name a few
Cherry picking free agent signings? how about these for DT – Huet, Khabibulin and Aucoin
Bowman signed Panarin, Darling, Richards, Mayers, and Emery while being cap crunched like DT never was.
I don’t dislike think DT (he did a good job putting the 2010 team together) but Stan has done as good or a better job working with what he was given and that includes the cap. He brought two more cups to Chicago and to suggest that that is Tallon’s doing is putting your own agenda ahead of the facts.
Cheers
Anisimov 4.55 and Murphy 3.85, trade Hossa 5.275 who doesn’t need replaced and replace Murphy with say Jokiharju and you have roughly 12.75m to go towards an ufa ( Taveres) with about 10m in available space wuth increase plus whats left above to resign rfas, cover promotions and maybe another add, 7 more spots to fill.
WRAP…. Where are all those guys on the BOWMAN list? How won CUPS the Cups?
“Soon thereafter, on July 14, 2009, the Blackhawks demoted Tallon to the position of senior advisor, while Stan Bowman, son of Scotty Bowman, was promoted to general manager.[11] The following day, Martin Havlát, who was no longer a Blackhawk, criticized the team’s management and defended Tallon.[12] He stated, “Every single player on that team is with Dale. I still talk to the guys all the time, hockey players know a phony when they see one.”[12] He specifically berated John McDonough, the team’s president, commenting, “McDonough couldn’t stand that Dale was so successful and getting the credit for building the Hawks from a last place team to making the Conference Finals in 3 short years.”[12]
The Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup in June 2010, giving Tallon his first championship. Tallon’s name was engraved on the Cup and the team issued him a Stanley Cup ring.[13]”
Tallon was hired as Player personnel in 1998??? Who helped drafting BIG BUFF, BICKELL, BROUWER… sorry, I am starting to laugh.
Hey can you break down the DANAULT tarde for me? Or the TEUVO trade? Or the SHARP JOHNS for DALEY GARBUT trade??? My favourite is TIMMONEN of the Flyers who had not played in a year, blood clot issue, 41 years old and he gave up a 2ndf rounder? Are you talking about BOWMAN?
Barry Smith spoke to Bowman about Richards! Coach Q asked for HANDZUS!
He traded away Saad the first time for a lifetime 3rd nline centgre in Anisimov, promptlhy gave him 4.7million when SAAD was asking for 5million, Bowman wanted no more then 4, arrogantly trades him away….We could have had Panarin and SAAD on that same team.
Then trades the best winger KANER has ever had after BIG BUFF! Then trades the best defensive Dman in HAMMER for the slowest dman in the NHL in Murphy???
Anyway, let’s move on…Osterle, Bouma, Franson…I digress!
SHARP BOLLAND TOEWS, KANE, KEITH, SEABROOK, CRAWFORD, THE HAMMER, BIG BUFF, BROUWER, VERSTEEG, HOSSA, CAMPBELL, NIEMI, MADDEN, LADD,…
Tallon’s boys with solid, long and some obviously great careers!
Bowman’s list? You want to compare stats? Only Richards and Panarin will compete.
On Tavares. The Pens acquired Kessel to go with Crosby and Malkin, a third large salary, and it paid off huge with back to back Cups. Letang’s contract is now comparable to the Seabrook deal that everybody gripes about. Welcome to the club Pittsburgh.
The point being I think Stan might see Tavares as the Kessel piece to revive the Hawks quickly without giving up four or five future assets.
They would definitely have to find a taker for Anisimov. I happen to think they like Murphy. I doubt they move him and I don’t think Stan is eager to.
I see a Ruuta moved at the draft now that he is under contract for next year to a team in need of a right handed 25 to 30 point NHL defenseman.
Craig you may be right on that about Murphy. I was just showing the room is there for Taveres next year. Keeping space for Debrincat, Schmaltz and other young players with not much coming off the board in another year or 2 down the road could be harder part.
Some hockey people have suggested moving Toews to wing so a
Toews Taveres Kane
top line looks tempting and maybe makes Saad moveable.
Wraper, geeze when you put it that way, it looks like Bowman is a much better GM.
Craig N. – thanks for the reminder re: Rutta :( He turned into a turnstile as the season progressed, yet Bowman saw fit to pay him over $2M cap hit. One thing Bowman has perfected well is trading off horrible contracts like this. It’s only for one year I believe, so if he secured a 3rd Round pick for Bollig and was able to unload Panik for a virtually no-risk/high potential player, one would think w/ the number of D-men the Hawks have, he will be able to pawn off Rutta on someone.
The Hawks have more than enough capable D-men to form a solid top 6. Pittsburgh won the last two Cups w/ Letang (who was hurt I want to say at least one of their Cups) and a bunch of 5-6 D-men. The Hawks need another trustworthy goalie and a legitimate center who can be trusted like Bolland was the first few years of his career. Everything will flow down quite well if this happens.
I was thinking be creative at the deadline (and draft/summer ufa) to add without trading assets/good prospects.
Add 91. That’s the way I like, uh hu.
Good one Mo, get the franchise type center and who is any better to replace Hossa’s void on wing than Toews, I think it works very good.
Great bass line in that song !
Can’t see them moving 19 to wing. He just needs to get back to playing he defense first style. I feel 19’s struggles have come more from trying to match point production with his contract, rather than doing the things he did to get the contract to begin with. Plus we are weak in terms of faceoff winners on the roster. Taking your best and moving him to wing isn’t a great option. Personally would rather have Karlsson than Tavares.
Mox- we agree
Karlsson over Tavares.. younger/cheaper/ and does ALL things well
@Makita
LAY OFF THE CAPS BRO!
You asked for my POV – I gave it to you in a reasoned way – you’ll have to live with it.
Btw – the facts are that Keith, Seabrook, Bolland, Bickell, Crawford, Brouwer and Buff were all drafted by someone else other than DT either Mike Smith or Pulford.
don’t tell me Tallon was acting GM from his player personnel chair
Again I’m not saying Tallon was bad just give credit where credit is due
I’m done with this topic
Well done Jets. 27th overall pick Preds 1st will be. Jets had more points in regular season of the four teams left and only one of them who didn’t win their division.
Nice to see Buff and Chevy advance (ex- Hawk factor) – to me there’s a resemblance between Jets and 2010 Hawks – size, speed, skill, desire and a looseness about them.
Jets and either WSH or TB is a good final. – I’m ready for the Vegas story to be over.
As Tab has mentioned, if the Blackhawks are going to be “big” players in the free agent market, someone besides Anisimov is likely going to go. I’ve stated before that I like Anisimov a lot, but if someone has to leave to make the team truly better and he can be dealt, so be it.
Murphy still scares me. Besides the hefty cap hit he’s just not been consistent. Like a lot of the Blackhawks this past season his decision making, bad penalties, being out of position etc. etc. really were costly at times.
I don’t know that Tavares is the answer. I do get the Kessel comparison, though. I’m just thinking that it may not be a quick fix but the D-Corps has to be improved to give whoever ends up in net (hopefully a very healthy Crawford) consistent and solid play in front of him.
Work some magic, Stan.
… and as was discussed a lot on tonight’s broadcast of the Preds-Jets game, Nashville may be looking to move defense. Surely not Chicago’s way, but it will be interesting to see who they offer up, and for who. Even with a President’s Trophy season they seem to think they still need just a bit more to get over the hump, and not just rely on the experience they’ve gained these last couple of years. Man, though, as much as I dislike Nashville they are a very talented team.
I actually dislike their fans more than the team. And the Carrie Underwood stuff is about as bad as the apparently mandatory Jim Belushi appearances associated with any winning Chicago sports team.
The Hartman trade looking really good tonight for Stan. Hartman barely played for Nashville. They gave up a 1st rounder + Ejdsell for a #12/13 type forward. I think Nashville was hoping he would be a good pickup for a long playoff run this year. It really did not work out.
In addition, the Hawks now have pick #27 in a deep draft. Nice !
Can you imagine if Stan get two blue chippers on June 22 the signs Tavares on July 1 ? This franchise would be reenergized very fast.
Ian, on Murphy. This is upcoming year is huge for him in the Hawks organization. I totally agree at this point no way is he a $4 Million defenseman. Truly if he cannot grasp Q’s system of defense after two years then the Hawks are stuck.
Iceman, I have a feeling Stan might see what Duclair’s value is at the draft. He buzzes around out there but Q hates guys who do not have structure and positioning to their game, the fact that Stan was able to dump Panik and his terrible contract was a feat in itself. If Stan were able to move Duclair for a 3rd round pick he might just do it, instead of paying Duclair a bridge contract to sit in Q’s doghouse.
Congrats to the Jets on a great series and hopefully win it all and represent the Central well. Just don’t overlook Vegas as they are playing well. Sorry Nashville don’t worry you can still fill your arena with Monster truck rallys and tractor pulls lol.
Couple of thoughts on the Jets Nashville series. It’s down right adorable to hear nashville media and fans understand the NHL playoffs. Nashville Canucks anyone? Very similar thoughts and comments from the fan base and media. 1st regular season success doesn’t mean a damn thing in the playoffs. Presidents trophy doesn’t mean anything either. 2nd the playoffs are all about depth, Nashville has a deep blueline but the Jets go 9 deep at forward. Vegas defense will struggle with the Jets forward group too. Which brings me the the goaltending. Rinne needed to be better. Last year he over achieved this yr it balanced out a 848% SV isn’t going to get it done. Can Fluery continue his hot run if yes Vegas has a chance if not the Jets will advance. Last point no such thing as home ice advantage or the “7 th” man (dumb) Rinne shit the bed and the Jets wanted it more game over. Sorry PK the better team DID win (asshole comment). Sorry David Poile try again! Go Hawks!
those 2 softies Pekka gave up in the first were the difference – otherwise it’s 1 -1 entering the third
Although I still think the Jets are the slightly better team – their forward depth is impressive
NSH is a one line team (and PP) as far as scoring goes- Kyle Turris where are you?
Starting to hear rumors of the hometown boy #19 to the Jets for…?
Tavares as his replacement…
Room for Karlsson…
Congrats to Jets. We now have 2 teams. Out of are conf going to be fantastic! I been a fan of Vegas since they beat hawks 1st time at home! And we got a Canada team that has them still in playoffs. I’m with Vegas but feel it’s time to have Canada in a finals for NHL maximizing market in 2 country ! Knights have the proven goalie which is everything! This team has it all to go to Cup and now there 4 wins away ! Rested up 5 days and have a great chance to steal Gm 1 in Winnipeg! They are playing with chip on there shoulders from being unprotected and we’re put together by a brilliant GM who knows talent and how to deal. They are the real deal and will be a force for years ! I’m taking knights to continue story year and win the cup ! SB needs to pay attention to see what he needs to do to be great again ! The Cap space is where it starts and picking up a backup goalie should be the up most priority ! Without that it’s a repeat of this year. ! Wraparound is on point !!!!
Congrats to the Jets on beating the “Doucheville Predators”. I went down there for a couple of games this past season and between their songs about how opposing players suck and how the opposing city sucks, they got exactly what they deserved.
Subban is just like Ovechkin, he’s in it for himself and it’s all about him. I’m glad that neither of these guys ever wore the Indianhead sweater. Neither of them have the leadership capabilities that it takes to win the Cup.
Again, NHL fans were proclaiming that the best goalie in the league is Pekka Rinne, just like everyone thinks that Carey Price is the god of all goalies. The last time I looked they have “ZERO” Cup rings between them. Rinne is just another goalie that “choked” when the pressure was turned up.
See you next year Doucheville!!
My guess/prediction on Jets/Vegas…
Hawks actually played Jets pretty well this year… did it with speed??? (or Jets just coasted???)… Hawks- for sure didn’t do it with size over Jets
Vegas- way faster/more intense than Hawks (or just way better coaching/system)…
cuz Vegas looked like they were skating 6 versus Hawks
Following the above… I am guessing- Vegas is gonna out speed/skate the Jets
and i am gonna take Knights… I do love the Jets size…
But can’t deny the BUZZING Knights and their coach/system
wts- I pick Vegas ( so odds are Jets will win … knowing my lack of ability to pick series)… lol
With Vegas indicating they intend to pursue a trade for Karlsson this summer, not sure that would be a bidding war to get into. With VGK owning a pocketful of amassed draft picks and showing by giving up 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders for Tatar that they are willing to part with them the price may be steep. Be interesting to see how they maintain their success by not picking in the plum blue chip draft pick spots other successful expansion franchises use to build their teams around. They may go all the way this year or the fairytale as someone mentioned may end and next year could be a dose of reality.
I hope a couple of the re-energize comments from above come to fruition-
heard the Kane interview on TSN-he was trying really hard to convince himself that the Hawks would rebound but his heart wasn’t behind his words. His response was basically we’ll see.
Unless the Jets totally fall apart against the Knights why would they give up young parts for Toews? They are so good and should get better next year. And they have leaders.
Having Toews and Taveres together could be something special, Taveres doesn’t have the 2 way game, speed or willingness to engage physically that Toews brings. Offensively he is an upgrade and maybe puck handling and transitioning too. He is a fine faceoff guy but not in Toews category and whether on Taveres wing because he can be or centering another line if Toews will be on the ice for a critical faceoff and he takes it.
JT 91 would make the Hawks better but doesn’t fix the defense what so ever. Lets hope he doesn’t wind up in Nashville because that would be a killer.
Vegas is aggressively going to go after Karlsson. I am sure the Hawks will also. Not sure the Hawks have the assets that Vegas can offer.
Toews to the Jets ship has sailed not sure why they would need him now, to be honest.
SSHM agree it doesn’t address defence, with the number of young defensemen in system and who knows what draft brings yet, help may be of the short term variety. Perhaps a one year pickup or signing to fit under the ltir window and come off books again to make it manageable and not interfere with rfa signings next summer either. Still have some room for a backup goalie contract too.
Great to see the Jets come through and improve our draft position. Could be a good chance we trade that pick for more established players from a team that wants to get back into the first round. Nice to have flexibility. Regardless of whether we go after Tavares (which seems to be a long shot) I think we should go after De Haan as a solid d-man. Also think we should consider Riley Nash who was quietly very solid in Boston. Any reports on how Dahlstrom and Forsling are performing for the Hogs? Hopefully they are getting lots of good experience in the playoff run.
I love Tavares but not sure a $12 mil contract in addition to 19 and 88 is the way back to the cup – I’m prepared to be wrong however. Maybe it works short term but what about when Schmaltz, Debrinact need new contracts – would we have to ship a good young player out for cap reasons
I like the idea of James Neal as UFA along with a couple of D men additions
He’d be cheaper of course but may also to be asking too long a term – he does however brings things the Hawks need – more a power forward who can play on the wall has speed and can score 5 v 5 and on the PP
Move Anisimov and Saad and go with
Toews Taveres Sikura
Debrincat Schmaltz Kane
Jurco Ejdselll Hino
Highmore Kampf Hayden and maybe Kahun later in season
Ejdsell finding his game now in Rockford
Still have room to sign a backup goalie and ltir Hossa before season and move current dman if necessary and use that space to bolster defence.
About 57.6m for forwards and bonus over plus 2m to sign backup goalie. About 22.3 equals 79.9 m with curent defrnce. Cap at least 78m and Hossa ltir 5.275m gives at least 83.275m which gives at least 3m+ say Rutta 2.25m for a dman for 1 year deal or left on contract.
Craig, Duclair may get you a 4th rounder, but not a 3rd. Still unproven with too much risk.
Southside, excellent analysis on the Jets-Preds series. Perfect analogy comparing Nashville with Vancouver. When Van choked against Boston, there were comments that Luongo couldn’t stop beach balls. Rinne’s backup (Saros) should now get the starting role and Nash should try to shop Rinne.
SB, please don’t be so foolish as to sign Tavares. He will command about $10M, which will put your team in long-term cap hell. Does Tavares make you a contender? Not by a long-shot. You still need three quality d-men, one NHL-ready goalie, one long-term goalie prospect, and at least one top nine winger.
Even if the Hawks make the playoffs next season they will not be a cup contender, with so many needs to be filled. Best strategy is to continue the partial rebuild. Drafting #8 and 27 (thank you WPG, am rooting for you all the way), or trading one of them for a prospect presents a great opportunity 2-3 years down the road.
Original6 obviously if Bowman is after free agents who are not goalies, Crawford must be good to go, that should be a good indication of Crawfords health if that happens. If he moves some pieces like Saad and/or Anisimov that would bring some sort of return hopefully addressing areas of need. It will come down to what they consider the biggest priorities, maybe not focusing on being competitive and on rebuild will be the route but i expect that will not br the case but how he intends to be competitive time will tell.
Love the kind words for Nashville. I had the same for Pittsburgh. at least Nashville deserved to win last yr and is on of the top teams. I donot like Nasville as well.
Things are happening for things to get back to normal. Getting two blue chip defenseman and one of the top ufa/elite players in league will be a key part in getting where we need to go and we have to get two top type players back to get roster where it was (81/4)(not really fair to blame/compare team until we have what we had again).
No matter what yrs, there always a Vancouver. Vancouver, then Anaheim, now Nashville. Were do these people come from.
Take off, eh.
Original6: agree on all points especially the rebuild. As for Duclair, too many get sucked in by the former first rounder tag. He does not play hard enough or with enough discipline for the NHL regardless of his talent. Move him for whatever you can get.
Nice goal by Kempny tonight. I posted a number of times that one thing to like about him is how well he gets pucks to the net. I guess that’s not what Q was looking for.
Interesting comments about Conner Murphy from Detroit Coach J. Blashill at World Championships. Same reasoning from Stan Bowman after he traded for him.
This is from the Scott Powers article on the Athletic :
Blashill has gotten to know Murphy on and off the ice the last few years as the team’s coach and he values both sides.
“I think what makes him a special player is the person he is,” Blashill said. “He’s an excellent, excellent competitor. That makes him a great leader. He holds himself accountable, holds his teammates accountable. I think he questioned one of our changes [Monday], so holds the coaches accountable. But that’s a good thing.
“He’s got great leadership ability. I had a chance to coach him last year. I was unbelievably impressed with the person and I still am today.”
Wow. High praise. Let’s hope Murphy wins Q’s confidence and has a really good second year.
Definitely nice to hear those comments on Murphy – I thought the 2nd half of the year he was a good steady D man and along with the (hopefully) improved Keith and a more in shape Seabrook we have 3 D men to rely on – I don’t think #5 will be traded
The Hawks however need at least 6 reliable D men – so we’ll see who those other 3 will be – gonna be some changes you’d figure
Good comments about Luke Johnson by Cotillon and Franson, both he is ready for NHL. Saying has a solid 2way game, who is a battler for the puck and goes to front of net to help offsensively. Defensively a strong backchecker who is responsible in his oen end. Can help on botb pk and pp. Last year he was touted as a strong faceoff guy who had to develop the rest of his game, looks like someone to watch as a possibilty for the fall.
This is not a misprint-from another AHL playoff game-almost 147 minutes
34 Lyon, Alex 1 146:48 95 94
Shots 1 2 3 OT 2OT 3OT 4OT 5OT Total
Lehigh Valley Phantoms 9 5 10 10 5 1 7 6 53
Charlotte Checkers 10 14 17 11 15 12 10 6 95
It didn’t format but 95 shots-5 OT periods
Lets do what we do for short and load up the right way for long term (in time for 19/88/2).
We need to have a solid group of young players so when they get to their prime yrs were a deep quality team like WIN.
Ian- Lot’s to Like on Luke Johnson…
BUT- Luke’s biggest issue… He is a SLOW skater… makes up for it a little with his IQ
and Work ethic… but at the end of day– very average skating speed (or lack there of)…
Ejdsell– his skating speed is lacking to… but has long reach, and filthy hands…
Could he work/score like AA– when left open — skating with two burners like Kane and ??? Kahun/Schmaltz/Saad??? I think/hope so… makes AA expendable
especially if Hawks are able to Draft a solid Center in 1st round this year…
(Me hopes Kotkaniemi!!!)
Ian. Luke Johnson also passes the eye test when I see him dating back to his North Dakota days. Back checks hard, sticks pucks from behind, goes into the corners banging, including after the whistle, takes the puck hard to the net. Well coached, passionate player determined to make the NHL
Correction : strips pucks from behind.
IF Toews plays to 85% of his “prime”
IF Seabrook can be an effective 3 Dman as he should be
IF Saad comes back and plays like Saad
IF the young guys show some incremental improvement.
The Hawks will make the playoffs
The Hawks need evolutionary changes, not revolutionary.
That said, what if Hossa comes back?
Hey Wrap and Noonan, I am not sure why you are denying that Tallon started as Director of player personel in 1998 and then became GM from m2005-2009??? Weird.
Let’s conclude this by remembering once this is all over the big names that won those 3 cups were all under Tallon, Smith, Pulford.
Bowman’s guys are who? Any of those he drafted or traded for make the Hall of Fame or get their shirts retired in Chicago or won trophies besides the Cups or will be part of Hawks scoring history??? TOEWS, KANE, CRAWFORD, SHARP, KEITH, BUFF, HAMMER, SEABROOK, HOSSA, CAMPBELL. Just accept the reality those cups were one by players under Tallon, one wqy or another. Get over BOWMAN, he is not in the same category.
We can move one and hope BOWMAN starts to draft and build like Tallon did or like CHEVY is doing with the JETS. If he can draft two one hundred point players in the second or later rounds like BOLLAND and BROUWER, maybe is learning.
By the way, happy for those NHL castoffs getting one more kick at the can with ROCKFORD, leading the team in the playoffs…Franson, Clendening and DiDomenico???? Tells you all you need to know about our prospects.
Hopefully #8 can turn out to be another JR in the draft!
NOT INTERESTED
Michael Kempny contributing–but he wasn’t one of the top 6 hawks defensemen this year? Q chose to bench him most games right? I’m curious as to how all of the Q apologists on this board, who vociferously defend him no matter what because of three cups, see this. How about coming clean and admitting that Q mishandled him?
Craig N – agree as to Luke Johnson, absolutely.
Bomba – if you’re an avid reader of the blog, you know my position as to Kempny, agree 1000%. Q is not stupid from a hockey standpoint, but he can hold a grudge as to certain players. Bingo.
Its not officially over yet. I knew that when these teams, PIT VEG etc played the top 2 teams NAS and TB (WIN is a good 3rd best) they would be put to bed. Was a bonuses that WAS and WIN put PIT to bed for good now. And this expansion shit is over, it was the divisions that allowed those teams to even win, if they played in the 2 hardest division there done round 1. It doesn’t matter what round it matters who you play.
End of that shit.
@ BOMBA
Playing with John Carlson makes Kempny look much better. Carlson is better then anyone the Hawks currently have on their blue line. Plus Holtby and PG are better then anyone the Hawks had in net. Kempny isn’t the greatest player but surround him with talent and he is a serviceable NHL dman.
Wrap, watching OHL finals between Hamilton and Sault Saint Marie!
Guess how many prospects from Chicago are in this game? NONE… Tampa have yet another player, and they draft late almost every year as well.. Actually, how many prospects, Canadian CHL prospects do the Hawks have in CHL leading up to the Memorial Cup finals?
Lots of good goalies in the CHL as well. Ask Price, Fleury, Holtby, Crawford, Helleybuck where they learned their craft, certainly not in Belguim, right?: Canada is a good bet for good goalies Mr. Bowman.
YAWN
Stick tap for Wrap. Yawn indeed.
Fantastic game with Jets & knights. Outside the obvious skate direct goal. It was great excitement and that is the measuring stick hawks need to be at. Good luck. Speed Speed Speed. Hitting oh yes power play goals. Young. Moving on
Mr Kempny looking good again tonight. Is he a superstar? No. Is he as good or better than half of the d men we had last year? Yes. Did Q screw him over and weaken the team in the process? Yes. Does this indict the judgement of Q? Yes. Is Q infallible despite being a damn good coach? No. Could we have used Kempny going forward? For sure. Is Q the man to guide a young retooling team whose players will make mistakes????…
In watching last nights game a couple of thoughts-it was brutal and viscous and wonder how, if they had gotten in to the playoffs (let’s forget about talent for a minute) how they would react-respond to the hitting and rough stuff? I know they were a possession team back then but teams are so much faster but still play a heavy, relentless game in the playoffs.
Secondly, but tied into the first-Kempny has grown 4 inches and 30 pounds since going the Caps. He’s learning from Orlov–who is a dirty prick, but he’s good and would look nice on the Hawks D.
The Hawks need some confident, smart nastiness.
Danault plays that way.
With every team being fast compared to 5 yrs ago. It turned into this tackle and go fast stuff. The players arnt as good at hockey just faster so there isint as much time to for skill. So you have this Earnhardt rattle your cage/but not knock you out or cheap shot stuff to get you off the puck or break up play. There is too much interference which allows fast teams/big teams to cheat more, well get away with more. They need to call the interference peanltys in the playoffs now, since its become this way.
Wall said and was good idea to have a bunch of semi cheaters players that do a lot of small penaltys that they wont call. Then by having a better hockey team, you know skill not meatheads, we can have a nice balance for whats needed these yrs.
Watching Kempny succeed is so, so frustrating.
I take the point that he’s with a better partner now, so he looks better. But he’s a fine hockey player in his own right. Really fit with our transition and join-the-rush style. Also, it’s hard to look valuable in the press box. Probably why Bowman only landed a third rounder for him. I often shrug off a player who performs better on another team after being dealt. Maybe they weren’t a good fit for our system and their skills are better used elsewhere. I don’t see that argument with Kempny. He fit really well with us.
Washington has very high praise for him. A yahoo article quotes their GM saying Kempny was their #1 target going into the trade deadline. #1. Trade. Target. This from a team that picked up Shattenkirk last year. Kempny for a third rounder. BRUTAL.
Now we need Murphy (desperately) and a rookie surprise for a serviceable back end.
That third round prospect had better be really freaking good.
Playoffs: I was really pleased to see the Preds go down in flames and in their own building to boot. I have been rooting for the Jets since the playoffs started and hope for a Jets vs Caps final. Two teams that could be considered to have long suffering fan bases. Caps have choked sooo many times over the years. Some good teams too. Maybe it’s their time. They are certainly playing really well at the moment. Nothing for me to dislike about this Caps bunch. While Las Vegas success has been a terrific story, they have 2 ex Blues players I can’t stand in Perron, and Reaves. For that reason, as well as the fact that they are a first year team, I hope the hockey Gods smile on the Jets this year. Nice to see Byfuglien back in the spotlight too in a positive way. I will never forget how he personally shut down the Pronger show back in the 2010 finals that turned that series momentum around to the Hawks!
Finally, I hope the Hawks draft and trade for some physically larger guys, or some more players that at least can play a more physical game. This 2017-2018 Hawks team would have been steamrolled had they made it to playoffs, just like last year.
Lets Go Hawks!
Where’s the puck Pronger.
It’s frustrating but helped us get a high top pick, on a rare off yr from us. The empire strikes back, now it’s our turn to load up again.
I would add the trades, 6 38 14 (return from 91) and see what. That’s a better judge then comparing specific trade. It’s really the whole package of a trade.
Phil, a guy like Ejdsell could certainly add size and Luke Johnson, Matthew Hihhmore bring grit with skill, all of them enjoying good run in Rockford playoff run and be in conversation for roster spots. Could help add a dimension to the roster.